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1 year ago ::
Jan 25, 2012 - 1:46PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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A drastic fall off in power will be measured by the average.
(80+30+30+30)/4 = 42.5.
(80+30+30+30+30)/ 5 = 40.
I'm more worried about a stereotypical "4 encounter powers used as standard action" falloff that looks more like:
(90+80+70+70)/4 = ~88
(90+80+70+70+30+30+30+30+30+30)/10 = ~49
In other words, 4 is a bad number because it's not significantly more than the number of encounter powers you have.
Also, as far as median goes...
[...]
So i don't think it's a good measure at all.
Agreed. Mean or go home.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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1 year ago ::
Jan 25, 2012 - 1:47PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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What about having 2 numbers
first 2 rounds' average KPT
10th round KPT
Werksferme. That's pretty close to exactly what I'd want. (the difference being I'd rather use KPR instead of KPT, since that's usually what we're measuring anyway.  )
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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1 year ago ::
Jan 25, 2012 - 1:53PM
#23
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A drastic fall off in power will be measured by the average.
(80+30+30+30)/4 = 42.5.
(80+30+30+30+30)/ 5 = 40.
I'm more worried about a stereotypical "4 encounter powers used as standard action" falloff that looks more like:
(90+80+70+70)/4 = ~88
(90+80+70+70+30+30+30+30+30+30)/10 = ~49
In other words, 4 is a bad number because it not significantly more than the number of encounter powers you have.
yea... I switch my vote to 5.
(90+80+70+70+30)/5 = 68
guides
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my builds
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 25, 2012 - 2:01PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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And now we're just debating the exact bias.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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1 year ago ::
Jan 25, 2012 - 2:04PM
#25
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Date Joined:
Jan 23, 2008
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I will not taint the votes with my opinion. I just wanted to say that I will be choosing the majority vote on median/average, and the majority vote on 2,3,4,5... round bias and if people like the 2 numbers rather than projecting onto 1 axis.
I probably will let the voting happen over 2-3 weeks, just so I get the majority of the lurkers. The active people here are quite biased towards one way or the other and are often verbal with their opinion which leads to great discussion. We also want a good sample size of votes.
DPR King Candidates 3.0How much damage should I shoot for?
Show
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR
Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR
Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR
Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR
It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
Show
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit
KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage
= DPR/(8*level+24)
KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
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1 year ago ::
Jan 25, 2012 - 2:11PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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Then please consider my vote to be "two numbers (Nova, and sustained)" and "Sustained should be measured over any number of rounds greater than 4 (5-10)" (and "Mean, not median")
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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1 year ago ::
Jan 25, 2012 - 2:12PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Jan 23, 2008
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killed off question 2 in favor of question 9.
please place your bets.
DPR King Candidates 3.0How much damage should I shoot for?
Show
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR
Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR
Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR
Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR
It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
Show
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit
KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage
= DPR/(8*level+24)
KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
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1 year ago ::
Jan 25, 2012 - 2:40PM
#28
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Date Joined:
Jan 23, 2008
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For the lurkers that don't have accounts, feel free to email me. Take my username and add 1 to it then append @gmail.com
DPR King Candidates 3.0How much damage should I shoot for?
Show
You're fired : 1 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .2 KPR
Fair Striker : 2 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .4 KPR
Highly Optimized : 3 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .6 KPR
Nerfbat please : 4 Kills Per 5 Rounds = .8 KPR
It's OVER 9000!!!!!: 5 Kills Per 5 Rounds = 1+ KPR
DPR? KPR? KP4R? Bless you
Show
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit
KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage
= DPR/(8*level+24)
KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
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1 year ago ::
Jan 25, 2012 - 2:50PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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9) Type 1 or Type 2?
Type 1)
- Encounter + At-Will section will have only 1 number. Encounter candidates will have N rounds to fight and we will take the average/median and rank them accordingly. N will bias either towards nova or towards sustained damage
- Nova section where you have 1 prep round and your nova damage is based on your total damage in round 2
Slight bias for Type 1. I think it's a more useful document if the sustained number is more realistic (including encounter powers), and thus more useful for your real goal of "Well-Rounded Striker Build corpus" But you need a spike-damage entry to be a real striker too...
(See my prior rants. A striker needs:
- Targeting Capacity to choose which monster to stop. (Mobility for melee strikers)
- Spike damage/Spike control. "Stop that monster Right-GAI-Now"
- DPRz to stop all monsters eventually
- Enough durability to apply 1-3 even if you rolled poorly for initiative.)
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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1 year ago ::
Jan 25, 2012 - 2:52PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2010
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1) DPR value1a) Do you want DPR or Normalized DPR?
Both would be nice to see - at level 30, I may be a 2 round striker but it nice to see that that equates to 150 dpr (or whatever it is)
1b)Do you want
- "turns per kill"(I'm an N round striker) 4 baseline, 2 optimized, 1 broken, anything less than 1 is still broken
- "kills per turn" (I kill N monsters each round) .25 baseline, .5 optimzed, 1+ broken
Again I'll say both - the more info the better, as long as there is a way to arrange it neatly 3) Categorization of cheese usage3a) Should we preserve a legend?
Not sure what this question is asking
3b) Should I use symbols(&%$@) or abberviations("Frst" for "uses frost cheese")?
Abreviation would be better than symbols but you'd still need a glossary.
3c) Should I enforce stating what cheese you use?
Yes
3d) What are some cheese elements you want? LFR(LFR legal), Frst(Frost cheese), Rev.(Revenants), CA(requires Combat advantage), Ch(needs to charge a foe every round), RM(Radiant Mafia), IRC(Item Rarity Compliant)
That works 3e) I'm probably going to keep the seperation of level 6 chargers vs. non-chargers. Do you feel other seperations are necessary?
I see no need to separate chargers even at level 6 4) Do you still want a Nova section? Are there special rules you want changed from the last DPR king thread (1 AP, 1 prep round, daily section and encounter section)?Yes, and no 5) Do you want a non-item specific builds section, or is the tag of IRC(Item Rarity Compliant) sufficent?5a) Should we have
- Builds are either IRC(Item rarity compliant) or IRS(Item rarity sucks) OR
- Builds can be either IRC(Item rarity compliant) or IPS(Item power spamming(Ammunition, Whetstones, Dancing weapon...)) or neither?
I would say that everything should be allowed but each build should state what it does - dancing weapons push the boat out further than some, but at a certain level magic amunition is cheap. 6) What guides/links do you want here? Just post a link.
A link to the glossary couldn't hurt. 7) What format do you want the "updates " section in?8) Daily item restrictions: Do we allow daily items, and how many encounters should a build be able to sustain it to be legal?
No to daily items, except for nova, unless the item is your level -10 and (un)common - i.e. a pittance. 9) Type 1 or Type 2?Type 1)
- Encounter + At-Will section will have only 1 number. Encounter candidates will have N rounds to fight and we will take the average/median and rank them accordingly. N will bias either towards nova or towards sustained damage
- Nova section where you have 1 prep round and your nova damage is based on your total damage in round 2
Type 2)
- Each candidate will have 2 numbers Nova(2 round average) and sustained(end of the day DPR). the nova value will default to sustained if no nova value is provided
Type 2.
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