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1 year ago ::
Jan 25, 2012 - 3:48PM
#41
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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People are getting worked up when one key point isn't even known/decided: what do stats MEAN in 5e? One issue I have with stat bonuses in 4e was that if a race got a stat bonus and skill bonus that used the same stat, it was effectively a +3 bump. In addition, other non-racially-connected skills indirectly got a +1 bonus if they happen to line up with the same stat. In too many cases that indirect skill bonus is not in keeping with that races design. Consider the following:
- What's the mechanical side-effect of a low stat race versus a high stat race? Until this is answered, I don't think there is much to discuss on this topic.
- If combat prowess (i.e. attack roll) isn't directly linked to a stat, what's left to argue about on pros/cons of racial stat modifiers?
What if skills were used as the "offensive" part of the formula (e.g.: d20+skill rank), and stats became the defenses (for combat that is)? Can't races have other features that better define them than a flat bump to stats or skills?
Magic Dual Color Test
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1 year ago ::
Jan 25, 2012 - 4:51PM
#42
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2007
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Not that I'm in support of ceilings regardless, but there's a question here. Would you be proposing a ceiling on halfling strength at 16, or a ceiling on level 1 halfling strength at 16. Because if ability scores bumps are part of 5E (and I hope they are), then ceilings are way worse than a -2 starting penalty.
A Str 16 level 1halfling fighter is viable.
A Str 16 lvl 20 halfling fighter is not.
Ceiling at level 1. And I would prefer not to have ceilings, and instead have just bonuses. (This still ensures that no halfling is as strong as the strongest human.) But I would prefer ceilings rather than penalties, and I thought this might be a comprimise with the people who love the idea of penalties.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 25, 2012 - 4:54PM
#43
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Date Joined:
Aug 27, 2007
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Ceiling at level 1. And I would prefer not to have ceilings, and instead have just bonuses. (This still ensures that no halfling is as strong as the strongest human.) But I would prefer ceilings rather than penalties, and I thought this might be a comprimise with the people who love the idea of penalties.
I prefer not having bonuses or penalties -- the cost for a strength of X should be the same regardless of your race. Now, the racial average might be different, but PCs aren't average.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 25, 2012 - 7:15PM
#44
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Date Joined:
Jan 16, 2008
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philosophically, i'm completely opposed to ceilings for ability scores. i prefer that the ruleset encourage certain choices, rather than discourage other choices. i think that design decision, which i think D&D has generally hewed to since 3.0, is more appealing.
honestly, it's been like this for long enough that it never dawned on me some might want to revisit that choice.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 26, 2012 - 12:58AM
#45
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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I too strongly dislike racial penalties. I can get behind racial bonuses, but would rather not have ability score bonuses. On the other hand, I'd like to have ability score bonuses if ability scores and combat were properly separated. And by that I mean something like choosing which stat applies to your attack roll at character creation. Maybe choose physical attack rolls to be keyed off of Str - brutal fight -, Dex - accuracy and speed -, Int - smartness and prediction - or Cha - the charming swashbuckler feinting and pun-fighting - whereas magical attack rolls to be keyed off of Con - channeling external powers through your body -, Int - bookworm magical knowledge -, Wis - divine inspiration - or Cha - magical raw power -, with the condition that you must choose two different stats for them. Or even better find a description for each ability score and allow to use any two of them for attacks.
But I kind of digress.
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Reflavoring: the change of flavor without changing any mechanical part of the game, no matter how small, in order to fit the mechanics to an otherwise unsupported concept.
Retexturing: the change of flavor (with at most minor mechanical adaptations) in order to effortlessly create support for a concept without inventing anything new.
Houseruling: the change, either minor or major, of the mechanics in order to better reflect a certain aspect of the game, including adapting the rules to fit an otherwise unsupported concept.
Homebrewing: the complete invention of something new that fits within the system in order to reflect an unsupported concept. Ideas for 5ESpoiler:
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1 year ago ::
Jan 26, 2012 - 2:24AM
#46
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Date Joined:
Jan 10, 2012
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Stat ceiling can totally negate a race's influence on the character, SO I'm very against them.
Listing stats max levels
.......................Str......Dex...Con...Int...Wis..Cha
Halflings are:..16......20......18.....18....18...20
Half-orcs are:.20.......20......18.....16....18...18
Buying a stat of 19 would cost 4 more points, buying one of 20 5 more points, so getting a stat of 20 would cost 25 points altogether (assuming a 4e style system)
If you going to play a a balanced character that hasn't tried to max the stat. There is nothing being effected by the level cap, it's as if it never existed.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 26, 2012 - 3:25AM
#47
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Date Joined:
Jun 11, 2010
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Why not apply the bonuses before any point buy spends, rather than after spending the points? That way, you still have to spend loads to get very high stats, and don't overly penalise races which don't get a bonus to a stat?
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1 year ago ::
Jan 26, 2012 - 4:02AM
#48
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Date Joined:
Aug 25, 2007
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Why not apply the bonuses before any point buy spends, rather than after spending the points? That way, you still have to spend loads to get very high stats, and don't overly penalise races which don't get a bonus to a stat?
this would be a kind of minimum stat array:
at this point you basicly start with all stats at 10 and 20 points to spend.
suggestion:
move the human to a stat aray starting to al 11 + 20 points ( makingall 6 scores 11 is 6 points extra)
other classes would have these 6 bonus points pre assigned in other ways.
half orc might be STR 12 Con 12 Dex 12 INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 10. + 20 points to spend.
somthing like a half ogre could be : STR 14,CON 11 Dex 10 INT 10 Wis 10 Cha 10. + 20 points to spend
al races would have max stats of 18 at first level.
your 20 points should be enough to be able to play any class, but you grt 6 bonus points that are pre assigened so there are no half orcs with a strength of less then 12.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 26, 2012 - 4:15AM
#49
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2004
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I am not at all in support of racial ability score ceilings. It's still a penalty, just one that's presented in a different way so that it doesn't immediately look like one. Useless and unnecessary limitations like this are bad.
This.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 26, 2012 - 1:37PM
#50
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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If you bust out your 1st Edition AD&D PhB you'll see that all the ladies in the house have their strength capped a point or three below the gentlemen's cap (unless you're talking about half-orc ladies). Not sure we want to go back that far though.
I'd prefer the stats have a bit less of an effect on classes myself. Its a little silly to think that halflings or gnomes might have the same strength scores as half-orcs or goliaths (based solely on their size here), but to say they they can't be fighters is also pretty limiting.
Then again, maybe the ability scores which get tied to (some?) classes could be a bit more flexible, so that you could be a fighter or warlord with dex as a primary ability score. Then races with a strength penalty might not be great fighters in the same way as half-orcs (swashbucklers vs knights?), but they could still do it.
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