|
1 year ago ::
Jan 23, 2012 - 2:07PM
#11
|
XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek
Date Joined:
May 31, 2003
|
Lobo 
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Jan 23, 2012 - 2:39PM
#12
|
Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2012
|
The god of war will be able to do extraordinary things, but not supernatural thing. Narrative is key here.
He won't fly but he'll make incredible jumps.
He won't teleport, but he will be able to charge as fast as lightning.
He won't hit multiple targets with one fireball, but he will be able to pull the exploite of swinging at every opponent he threatens.
He won't be able to animate the dead, but he will be able to inspire people to join his cause and raise armies.
He won't summon a energy field to protect him, but he always wears the best heavy armor and the best shields ever forged and enchanted.
He won't be able to cast wish, but the wizard will wish he could go at it all day like the god of war.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Jan 23, 2012 - 2:51PM
#13
|
Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
|
Just because you can imagine a wizard who kills God with a twitch of his eyebrow doesn't mean it's a playable character or a staple archetype of heroic fantasy.
D&D is a fantasy RPG, and the genre does include wizards. Evil wizards that the heroic warrior kills. Good wizards who give the heroic warrior a magic sword to help him slay the dragon. Hot sorceresses who give the heroic warrior helpful information about about his enemies in return for a good time. Friendly wizards who remove a curse or heal a terrible injury so the hero can continue with his quest. Court wizards who intrigue against the hero, or give him invaluable assistance, or both. Charlatans who decieve the hero and have no real magical power.
What it doesn't include: wizards who resolve all the conflicts in the plotline with a well-chosen spell.
Just as fiction doesn't include the most powerful wizard you can imagine, just because you can imagine him, RPGs that have playable wizards don't include the most powerful wizard you can imagine - unless /all/ the PCs are super-powerful reality-warping wizards, of course, like in Mage: the Ascension.
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Jan 23, 2012 - 3:11PM
#14
|
|
|
My vote still goes to Guts from the Berserk series. Just a man with a big slab of iron and a ton of demons to kill.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Jan 23, 2012 - 3:51PM
#15
|
Date Joined:
Dec 27, 2008
|
What it doesn't include: wizards who resolve all the conflicts in the plotline with a well-chosen spell.
A fine assertion, but what you have to realize is that the opposition you are encountering is from the people who want this:
- unless /all/ the PCs are super-powerful reality-warping wizards, of course, like in Mage: the Ascension.
At least from wizards/druids/clerics.
The basic dilemma is this: either some magical concepts are simply off-limits, or martial concepts stop being able to compete at a certain level.
I favor the former approach myself, but it's important to understand that there are a lot of people who favor the latter, and they complained vehemently about 4e, and they are part of the audience that 5e is trying to reach.
The issue about fighter-wizard balance isn't about how powerful we want them to be. It's the idea that the fighter represents the real, and the wizard represents the imagined.
That's not how I would phrase it. After all, Batman is definitely martial, but also definitely capable of feats that no actual person is capable of, such as dodging bullets.
But there are definitely limitations to what a character is capable of through extreme badassery alone. Those limits aren't based on reality, per se. But they are based on cause and effect. A fighter might be able to leap fifty feet in the air and chop the head of a giant in two, but he can't psychicly enter the giant's dreams and force him to relive his greatest fears over and over again. A rogue can leap in the air and bounce off three walls at 45 degree angles, then land on his feet after a 100 foot drop as long as he is carrying an umbrella, but a wizard can do the same thing without the walls, and he never has to come down.
And of course for every person there is a point where suspension of disbelief just snaps when it comes to physical feats. When people start flying and throwing fireballs at each other and then explain that it's because of their advanced ninja skills, I don't hear "These are perfectly natural abilities that are the result of our rigorous physical training." I hear "Ninjitsu is magic."
That's why I rejected several of the examples proffered in the other thread on this topic. (Aside: why was a second thread created about the same topic when there was a perfectly good one on the front page?) Superman, Spider-Man, and the Incredible Hulk are not "martial" characters. The physical feats they are capable of are the result of magical phlebotinum. I would say that anybody who would be described in their own universe as having super powers, magic, the favor of the gods that manifests as anything greater than good luck, or alien technology does not fall into the category of martial characters. In this thread, it doesn't help that two of the four examples are parodies.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Jan 23, 2012 - 4:09PM
#16
|
Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2011
|
the thing that i find wierd about the fighter is that his stats(strength,constituion and sometimes dexterity) dont improve) as a fighter who exerts the limits of his physical powers he should be improving. maybe not a direct bonus to those stats, but what about an inherent bonus, not to mention giving him a choice of combat maneuvers that will let him do epic things, like Kratos's epic chain blade attacks.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Jan 23, 2012 - 4:19PM
#17
|
|
|
Isn't that what his class abilities are (meant to be) for? be they specialisation (and mastery) and extra attacks (2e), feats (3e) or powers (4e)
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Jan 23, 2012 - 4:28PM
#18
|
Date Joined:
Dec 27, 2008
|
the thing that i find wierd about the fighter is that his stats(strength,constituion and sometimes dexterity) dont improve) as a fighter who exerts the limits of his physical powers he should be improving. maybe not a direct bonus to those stats, but what about an inherent bonus, not to mention giving him a choice of combat maneuvers that will let him do epic things, like Kratos's epic chain blade attacks.
Well in 3e and 4e, the fighter's ability scores do improve, and they do gain special attacks as they level. So I would say that most players agree with you.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Jan 24, 2012 - 5:40AM
#19
|
Date Joined:
Aug 10, 2009
|
If we want an entirely mundane fighter, go look up Groo the Wanderer.
No magic items.
INT score of roughly 2.
Unstoppable murder machine.
You forgot his passive ability to sink boats and ships unless he brings Rufferto along with him, and to screw up Granny Groo's con jobs.
Although I wondered why people don't view martial "powers" as just advanced sword techniques that a character learns as they're adventuring. Maybe they carry a copy of the good ol' Puissant Manual with them and study it when they get downtime?
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Jan 24, 2012 - 6:15AM
#20
|
Date Joined:
Sep 14, 2008
|
I always figured that fighters and other martial classes gain a mastery of ki, weather consciously or unconsciously. Thus allowing them to transcend physical limits. Just a different kind of magic.
|
|
|
