Ideally, a 'classless' character should be largely interchangable with a "normal" character. Abandoning stuff just to make the math easier doesn't really accomplish that ideal.
Hence, the placing of it as a variant system Same powers, same level 1 character creation, but different development system. Kinda how we have variant systems like Vancian, PP, and Essentials all working inside this "classless D&D", except this time instead of giving just players options, I'd also like to give the DM options
Some DMs want their campaigns gritty, so the last post attempts to cater to that as well, by lowering HP and flattening the math curve, all while keeping with the character development paradigm. It will not be the main system however -- that I'll be very clear on -- but if ever you want to have low-level creatures running amok and challenging players well into their epic tier [without having to adjust the math significantly, especially for minions], at least you have options yes?
There's also the complaints on enemies having too many hit points, and combat being very slow...
You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what you create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.
If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.
This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery.
I love it, as long as we keep it optional. We are essentially making a collection of homebrews, and I want it to be useable as a core or as an addative to the game, meaning that you can use any or all of it for your games.
But as for now, let's focus on completing one concept of the system before we jump to the next one. I'd rather not have 4 unfinished versions of the games, if you know what I mean.
Does the "When your level advancement table would give you a daily power you intead gain an additional use of your current highest level encounter power" essential-style power system work with the current system?
Did you make an "official" write up of your "all dailies" system, where all standard-action implement powers become "x uses per day" powers?
Make an official looking write-up for the math of this new advancement formula.
Right now 3 of the 4 role features all allow movement. It would be really fun to have them all allow for some mobility, 'cause then we can make some fun mobility feats that apply to all the roles:
Eldritch Wanderer Benefit: "fluff about how you can teleport". You gain the following benefit, based on your role combination. Striker/Striker: You can teleport the same amount of squares you would move. Leader/Controller: You can teleport the target the same amount of squares you would slide it.
etc. Could also be a shadow-flavoured feat, and you could limit the Striker's teleport to "adjacent to another creature". So, yeah, finish making final write-ups of powers and systems, and then we have on our hands 1 tier of play in 3 different playstyles ^^
I love it, as long as we keep it optional. We are essentially making a collection of homebrews, and I want it to be useable as a core or as an addative to the game, meaning that you can use any or all of it for your games.
But as for now, let's focus on completing one concept of the system before we jump to the next one. I'd rather not have 4 unfinished versions of the games, if you know what I mean.
Does the "When your level advancement table would give you a daily power you intead gain an additional use of your current highest level encounter power" essential-style power system work with the current system?
Did you make an "official" write up of your "all dailies" system, where all standard-action implement powers become "x uses per day" powers?
Make an official looking write-up for the math of this new advancement formula.
Right now 3 of the 4 role features all allow movement. It would be really fun to have them all allow for some mobility, 'cause then we can make some fun mobility feats that apply to all the roles:
Eldritch Wanderer Benefit: "fluff about how you can teleport". You gain the following benefit, based on your role combination. Striker/Striker: You can teleport the same amount of squares you would move. Leader/Controller: You can teleport the target the same amount of squares you would slide it.
etc. Could also be a shadow-flavoured feat, and you could limit the Striker's teleport to "adjacent to another creature". So, yeah, finish making final write-ups of powers and systems, and then we have on our hands 1 tier of play in 3 different playstyles ^^
Acknowledged Will be working on the variants later (hence, they're the last in both the page design, and discussion relevance). Meanwhile, we focus on developing level 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9 and 10 powers then we'll have feats that are more on character customization we'll be avoiding feats to enhance character capabilities for heroic tier at least :p at paragon and epic, it's more of a question of how to show the increase in power and difference in tier without having to rely on a myriad of feat taxes or options bloat. I'm thinking that powers should be viable from heroic to epic, while paragon and epic powers give a far greater variety of effects (that require little to no tracking, if possible).
I'm a bit against giving too many plusses or minuses -- especially conditional ones that change over time -- simply because resolving it can be a chore. If it was math for one turn, not too much of a problem... but if the math problems cause rounds to be resolved in half an hour or more, that could be a bit problematic...
You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what you create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.
If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.
This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery.
I'd love to see the math flattened out. I said it in one of the DDN threads that i'd like static bonuses under 10 or so, with most damage coming from handfuls of dice. Increase damage through Brutal dice methods or Avenging Resolution-type feats (treat 1s and 2s as 3s).
I guess we'll stick with slow, daze and prone for controllers, and THPs, movement, heals and a little attack granting for the leader. Quote this list and fill out the name of your power in the open parentheses. We'll slowly work our way up. I think we have material, that needs to be fixed, that will get us as far as level 5, if I'm right.
Level 1
At-Will
Weapon on-hit (
Implement on-hit (
Implement Standard action (
Encounter
Weapon on-hit (
Implement on-hit (
Implement Standard action (
Daily
Implement Standard Action (
Varies (
Level 2
Utility power
Multi-role utility power (
"What's missing" utility power. (
For example, if our powers make it hard to focus on teleporting, we make a teleporting utility power, or if our powers are making it difficult to be a ranged defender, we add a power for ranged defenders etc.
Level 3
Encounter power
Weapon on-hit (
Implement on-hit (
Implement Standard action (
Level 4
nada
Level 5
Daily power
Implement Standard action (
Varies (
Level 6
Utility power
Multi-role utility power (
"What's Missing" utility power. Defenders getting low on damage? Add some extra oomph to retaliation damage. Strikers not getting enough mobility? Make a "Minor: You use a move action" power. Nobody picked a leader primary? Make a healing power available to everyone. (
Level 7
Encounter Power
Weapon-on hit (
Implement on-hit (
Implement Standard action (
Level 8
Nada
Level 9
Daily power
Implement Standard (
varies (
Level 10
Utility power
Multi-role utility power (
"What's Missing" utility power. These powers will be the last powers we make, and will be used as "patches" to fix minor shortcomings here and there. (
At character creation, you get 100gp -- an abstraction of your life's earnings before you began adventuring -- as well as regular cloth armor (regular clothing). Feel free to spend it as you wish, but in this system there are a few changes you may wish to take note of:
Weapons: you can have one, two, or even a dozen various weapons, all described in any way you want. Regardless, these are the stats of each weapon, and their cost:
Unarmed/Improvised Attacks (Range 3/6 if ranged)
Swift: +3 to hit, 1d4 damage [0 gp]
Powerful: +2 to hit, 1d6 damage [0 gp]
Light Weapons (Range 5/10 if ranged)
One-Handed: +3 to hit, 1d8 damage [15 gp]
Heavy Weapons (Range 15/30 if ranged)
One-Handed: +3 to hit, 1d10 damage [15 gp]
Two-Handed: +2 to hit, 2d6 damage [30 gp]
Off-hand Weapons. Unarmed and Improvised weapons also count as off-hand weapons.
Light Off-Hand: +3 to hit, 1d6 damage [5 gp]
Heavy Off-Hand: +2 to hit, 1d8 damage [5 gp]
Being Small:
You can not wield the same weapons as the tall-folks.
Light Weapons (Range 5/10 if ranged)
One-handed Light Weapon: +3 to hit, 1d6 damage [1gp]
Two-handed Light Weapon: +2 to hit, 1d8 damage [15 gp]
Heavy Weapons (Range 10/20 if ranged)
Two handed heavy weapon: +2 to hit, 1d10 damage.[15 gp]
Armor
Light: +3 Armor Bonus to AC [25 gp]
Heavy: +7 Armor Bonus to AC, -1 to speed. [45 gp]
Shield: +1 Shield Bonus to AC and Reflex [5 gp]
Gear:
Adventurer’s Kit: [15 gp]
Backpack, bedroll, flint n’ steel, belt pouch, 10 day’ worth of food, 50 feet of rope and a waterskin.
Everburning Torch [50 gp]
This torch never stops burning. It casts bright light to a radius of 5 squares but sheds no heat, so you can stow it in a bag or a pouch. You can’t set fire to anything with it.
Climber’s Kit [2 gp]
Including a Grappling hook, a small hammer and a handful of pitons.
Thievery Kit [20 gp]
Picks, pries, skeleton keys, clamps and so on.
Detective’s Kit [40 gp]
several containers, brushes, mundane dusts, tweezers, picks, probes, a magnifying glass, ink and quills, parchment, and a small journal.
Magical Implement
Staff Implement: [5 gp]
Tome Implement: [7 gp]
Wand Implement: [7 gp]
Rod Implement: [12 gp]
Orb Implement: [15 gp]
Note that magical items have no effect on defenses and accuracy, and you gain no enhancement bonuses from such items, although they do still have enhancement bonuses for other purposes and effects that are based on enhancement bonuses.
You do not gain any non-situational bonuses to damage rolls, such as from Iron Armbands of Power or Bracers of Archery. You cannot take the feats Improved Defense, Weapon Focus, or Improved Initative. You do not gain the bonus to attack rolls from expertise feats or bonus to defenses from Superior Defense feats.
Assassin Benfit: You can make a stealth check to hide if you have partial cover or partial concealment. In addition, you gain the Silent Takedown at-will power.
Silent Takedown
Assassin Attack
You catch your target unaware and surprised, taking it down as silently as possible
At-Will
Standard Action
Target:One creature you are hidden from.
Attack:+8 vs. Reflex, you have combat advantage for the attack.
Effect: You shift 2 squares before the attack.
Hit: 2d8 + 4 damage, and the target is grabbed until the end of your next turn. While the grab persists, the target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls against you and cannot speak, and you cannot make other attacks.
Sustain Standard: Sustain Standard: The grab persists, and the target takes 2d8 + 4 damage
Special: If you have a poison you can apply it to your target instead of making the attack
Resistance: Requirement: You can not have any resistance granted by your race or class. Benefit: You gain resist 5 against one type of damage, corresponding to your Elemental Affinity of Choice. The resistance increases to 10 at 11th level and 15 at 21st level.
I'm thinking that each role gains a feature at level 7, something like
Defender: You gain a +2 feat bonus to saving throws
Controller Once per turn, when you hit with an attack, you can one target of the attack one square.
Leader: You gain they _____ encounter power.
Just to keep things fresh. How does that sound? I am looking at some of the most iconic classes for each role, and I really think Righteous Shield should be a Defender utility power, perhaps a free one.
I've been compiling the updates in here, so that everything won't get lost in the 9 pages of this thread xD
Check it out, I also added a Create Race option and a feat-list that will then be improved upon.
This is all work in progress, of course xD
I was wondering if I could add this line
"When you gain your Role Power you can choose either your primary or secondary role to be the role deciding the power's effect. This choice remains throghout your character's life and cannot be retrained".
This way all characters have two roles, but can choose which role goes with their role feature :D
I'm thinking that each role gains a feature at level 7, something like
Defender: You gain a +2 feat bonus to saving throws
Controller Once per turn, when you hit with an attack, you can one target of the attack one square.
Leader: You gain they _____ encounter power.
Just to keep things fresh. How does that sound? I am looking at some of the most iconic classes for each role, and I really think Righteous Shield should be a Defender utility power, perhaps a free one.
You mean Essentials-style?
That could work, although my main concern is how that would work within the primary/secondary paradigm, as well as the existence of a possible tertiary or alternate secondary into the mix.
In the meantime, it seems that I have a way to work out that Vancian spellcasting balancing bit This is inspired by one of my readings regarding D&D Next: Basically you lose your two level 1 at-will attack powers in exchange for an additional one encounter attack power. A more extreme version would allow you to trade off two encounter attack powers for one daily attack power of the lower encounter attack power (or lower), and you can do this trade off only once. That way, at level 21, you could choose to have 4 encounter attack powers + 3 daily attack powers... or you could have 2 encounter attack power + 5 daily attack powers. It's still above the expected output curve, but still within reason, I reckon
That way, when we have Essentials style, we have the option to remove variety in encounter powers, as well as remove daily attack powers, in exchange for additional at-wills and uses for particular encounter powers, like Essentials' Power Strike
You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what you create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.
If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.
This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery.
Same powers, same level 1 character creation, but different development system. Kinda how we have variant systems like Vancian, PP, and Essentials all working inside this "classless D&D", except this time instead of giving just players options, I'd also like to give the DM options 
