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1 year ago ::
Jan 19, 2012 - 9:14AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2011
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So, I've been looking into ways to optimize Grab Performance for an Essentials-Style Red Scales Assassin (for use with the Garrote). After reading the Assassin Handbook and a few other sources, I've noticed that a repeated piece of advice is to "Max out Reflex and/or Fortitude". Now, why is that?
From what I understand, when you want to make a Grab Attack it is your Strength Vs. Their Reflex, and if you want to move the target (or possibly further restrain him, I can't remember) it is your Strength Vs. Their Fortitude. If that is the case, why would you bother bumping your Reflex and Fortitude? Shouldn't you worry about improving your Strength as much as possible?
I'm sure this has already been answered somewhere else, but if someone could take the time to help me out; I'd appreciate it.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 19, 2012 - 9:18AM
#2
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Because, when the monster attempts to escape from your grab, it uses either its Athletics against your Fortitude or its Acrobatics against your Reflex.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 19, 2012 - 9:20AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2006
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You need high reflex/fort to prevent enemies from easily escaping.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 19, 2012 - 9:58AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2011
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Ahhh, okay. So if I took Improved Defenses somewhere in the Heroic-Paraon Tier, and then took Epic Reflexes & Epic Fortitude in Epic Tier... would that be enough to pin down most enemies? Or should I try to get Lightning Reflexes/Great Fortitude in Paragon?
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1 year ago ::
Jan 19, 2012 - 10:31PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Apr 16, 2005
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However much you want to want to invest. The "special maneuvers" that came into being in 3rd edition, such as grapple, bull rush, trip, overrun, sunder & disarm, were nearly eliminated from the game in 4th edition. Grapple lives on in Grab obviously, but its much easier for a creature (generally) to escape a grab than it is to initiate one. I think the designers wanted to downplay the use of the ability. I think they went a teensie bit too far.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 19, 2012 - 11:01PM
#6
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However much you want to want to invest. The "special maneuvers" that came into being in 3rd edition, such as grapple, bull rush, trip, overrun, sunder & disarm, were nearly eliminated from the game in 4th edition. Grapple lives on in Grab obviously, but its much easier for a creature (generally) to escape a grab than it is to initiate one. I think the designers wanted to downplay the use of the ability. I think they went a teensie bit too far.
Well if you play a brawler (the class that specializes in this sort of thing) you can make enemies unable to break away EVER.
NOt sure it is possible with assassin.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 20, 2012 - 8:56AM
#7
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As a Red Scales Executioner Assassin, you won't be using the basic Str-based 'Grab' attack anyway. You'll be using either Garrote Strangle or Hidden Stab, both of which use your Dex rather than Str, to initiate the grab. All you need is sufficient Fort and Ref to make sure the monster can't easily escape on its next turn.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 20, 2012 - 9:17AM
#8
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Ahhh, okay. So if I took Improved Defenses somewhere in the Heroic-Paraon Tier, and then took Epic Reflexes & Epic Fortitude in Epic Tier... would that be enough to pin down most enemies? Or should I try to get Lightning Reflexes/Great Fortitude in Paragon?
Skills varies greatly. So it's much more dependant on what you grab. As long as you're bumping Dex and Con, you should have a decent (say... 50/50) chance of holding things.
- Superior Fortitude and Superior Reflexes will only help grabs a little, but they also help keep you alive, and give some nice other benefits. Using improved defenses till paragon is probably a good idea. Since there's probably other high priority feats. So... do like... take superior fort at 14, superior reflex at 16, and retrain improved defense to iron will at 16.
- Epic fort/reflex are both good in epic.
- And get some item bonuses, such as the belt of vim.
If you take all of that, you should be able to hold most things, not to mention be pretty hard to hit on those defense.
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 20, 2012 - 1:16PM
#9
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- Head of Insanity Division
Date Joined:
Jul 23, 2004
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Not sure if it's mentioned in the handbook, but I will throw out that, especially in paragon, you'll probably want a Feyslaughter weapon. It prevents the creature from simply teleporting out of your grab.
Throw in a Sash of Ensarement (or similar reach-improving item) and you have less to worry about forced movement breaking the grab as well.
Enjoy!
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