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1 year ago ::
Jan 18, 2012 - 7:50PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Nov 24, 2009
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You used to be able to play without them. Without homebrew, it's pretty much impossible not to use them with 4e.
What did minis bring to the game, and what did they take away?
Do you want them in 5e?
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1 year ago ::
Jan 18, 2012 - 7:55PM
#2
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They took away confusion and uncertainty.
They added tactical combat and aided the group in ensuring that everybody was imagining the same thing.
Yes, I want them in 5e, because I've used them since 1e.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 18, 2012 - 7:58PM
#3
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Date Joined:
May 17, 2009
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I use minis in every TTRPG I play. I've tried every system I've ever played without them, but I always come running back to them, simply because I hate the disconnect in the shared fiction that seems to always resutl when I don't have them.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool. | Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner | |
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 18, 2012 - 8:07PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2008
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What did minis bring to the game
- Tactical combat
- A common frame of reference
- More profit for the gaming company producing the game we all enjoy and love.
- Defined rules for combat maneuvers
and what did [minis] take away?
- Descriptive combats that concentrate more on style and flavour then tactics and rules.
- Encouragement to do outside the box maneuvers.
- The ability for creatures to occupy the same square (3 foot door with 3 characters pushing against it to try to keep it closed against the zombie hoarde on the other side)
- Imagination. It's hard to imagine you're fighting a giant floating ball of eyes when the only mini that the DM has even close to it is a rat swarm.
- A requirement to choose your words carefully DM: "You see a large rat" Player 1: Is this large for a rat? or is this a rat that would occupy 10 feet by 10 feet?"
- Horses that are sized appropriately damn it!
- Storage space
Do you want them in 5e?
I don't know. As such, I want support for both systems.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 18, 2012 - 8:19PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Aug 21, 2007
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Do you want them in 5e?
I don't know. As such, I want support for both systems.
This, more than anything else I've read today should be what D&DN is about.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 18, 2012 - 8:25PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2007
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Agreed. If there can be support for gridful and gridless, it'll be even better for all. And that's the point, right?
Man, how are they going to do this?
I don't use emoticons, and I'm also pretty pleasant. So if I say something that's rude or insulting, it's probably a joke.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 18, 2012 - 8:26PM
#7
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We always used miniatures and a battlemat right back to the old old days when 'battlemat' meant a hand ruled 1" grid laid under a piece of plexi or just sheets of 8.5x11" 1" ruled paper taped together and drawn on with a magic marker or we'd use pens and pencils to show where walls were and some dice would be the altar or the chest or whatever.
Mainly what I want to see is a core set of rules that takes account of the needs of a good solid tactical combat system that will work. It certainly doesn't have to be the only alternative, but the old AD&D vintage rules had serious issues that made tactical combat not really work even if you HAD a map/grid and minis. Movement rates were WAY too fast for instance, and the way turn sequence/initiative worked was not conducive to any kind of definite idea of who moved where and who got their first, etc. That stuff needs to be considered right from the start. It also isn't really important from a less concrete combat system POV, you just need to know who is faster or slower and have some notion of time and distance for that, which the definite tactical system's numbers can feed you.
Not using miniatures at all has the drawbacks already mentioned by others. Things tend to get 'fuzzy'. That's OK for dramatic effect, if the DM is going for drama then fuzzy lets you fudge and the player can always pull off his cool move because nobody is really sure he can't most of the time. If OTOH you want more of an intense fight feel and to emphasize complicated combat environments then you probably want a map and some good rules for where everyone is and where they end up when they do this that or the other.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
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1 year ago ::
Jan 18, 2012 - 8:45PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jul 13, 2011
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Agreed. If there can be support for gridful and gridless, it'll be even better for all. And that's the point, right?
Man, how are they going to do this?
Since the game is based on tactical rules fomr its origin we have been doing that since its inception. Looking at my OD&D Basic rules there is a section for movement 120' per turn. Then drops to 30' per turn based on encumbrance. All of the spells had ranges which most us are already familiar with. Everything was given in feet. This translated to 1square = X when grides went on the table.
One of the ways that taking the grid off the table can work is to change the range and movement rules. Travler does exactly that. Distance is given in degrees of proximity close, short, medium, long and extreme. Using this system means it takes actions/time to get within a certian range.
It is funny, I am listening to some old pod casts from "The Tome show". The gencon special ADV. Design Seminar. The reason its funny is the developers are talking about all the stuff they do not even use, right now is the topic of skills.
MY DM COMMITMENT
To insure that those who participate in any game that I adjudicate are having fun, staying engaged, maintaining focus, contributing to the story and becoming legendary.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules."
Gary Gygax
Thanks for that Gary, so now stop playing RAW games.
Member of the Progressive Front of Grognardia Suicide Squad
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1 year ago ::
Jan 18, 2012 - 9:16PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2008
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Man, how are they going to do this?
Start with basic rules that give you movement and distance in terms of feet rather than squares. Introduce basic rules for threatening reach and attacks of opportunity.
Build upon those rules by introducing squares and optional subsystems. If a spell is described as a "30-foot burst" have different ways of interpreting this:
- Gridless interpretation: It's exactly what it says. A 30-foot burst. DM decides whose in the radius and informs the players before they cast the spell.
- 3.5e interpretation: It has a 30-foot diameter with templates used to approximate a circular shape when using a grid system.
- 4e interpretation: There are 5-feet in a square, so 30-foot burst is a square with a size of 6 squares by 6 squares.
If a PC wants to reach an object that is 60 feet away from them at a 45 degree angle, there would be different ways of interpreting this:
- Gridless interpretation: The DM interprets how many full rounds it takes the player to get to the object. Giudelines are offered that suggest it should take roughly 1 to 2 turns.
- 3.5e interpretation: Every second diagonal square incurs an extra square of movement. Takes 2 rounds at double moves.
- 4e interpretation: Diagonals incur no movement penalty. The player can get there as in 1 round at a double move.
We need a very basic system that gets built upon with optional modules so that all play-styles can be incorporated.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 18, 2012 - 9:45PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2012
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I think minis are part of D&D, as D&D started as a wargame. you need them to ensure everyone understands what is possible and what isnt within the encounter, without minis DMs spend a LOT of time going over again and again where everyone is standing etc if they dont draw it out on a peice of paper "this X is you, this Y is the ogre" etc. Minis allowed players to personalize their characters, and the gameboard IE battlemat or whatever you used. Minis are and will continue to be cool.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." Gygax
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