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1 year ago ::
Jan 17, 2012 - 7:20AM
#71
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Date Joined:
Aug 30, 2010
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For the third time, what precisely do you think my objection is? Because it doesn't resemble anything that your posts would be resonsive to.
Because, as I stated, the exact same objection can be raised to the presence of a town guard, or an army, any organization of good people, or any individual good person. The fact that it is a good race has no special bearing on the fact that you need a reason for all of these people to be somehow unable or unwilling to fix all the problems of the universe and leave some small smidgen of evil for the players to handle.
THAT is why your complaint is ridiculous. Your excuse of "the DM puts those things in his campaign" also applies, as the DM puts the good monster races in his campaign as well. Only in established settings are creatures specifically included by WotC, and in those settings, WotC is specifically adding good NPCs and organizations all the time, and when they do include dragons, they give them the same fluff writeup. So, you have zero case.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 17, 2012 - 7:43AM
#72
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I think the problem here is alignment. I've never liked it and this is one of the reasons why - people get hung up on it. To further make a whole race monolithically "good" (or evil for that matter) creatures exacerbates the problem. I don't see how including creatures like this in a game makes it any better or more interesting. I'd rather focus on the agenda of the individual creature and why it's important right now, not the general outlook of its race.
Also, I hate "questgivers" of any race or alignment. That's such a tired way of playing the game.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 17, 2012 - 8:45AM
#73
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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For the third time, what precisely do you think my objection is? Because it doesn't resemble anything that your posts would be resonsive to.
Because, as I stated, the exact same objection
For the fourth time, what objection do you think I'm making? Because what you just wrote doesn't appear to be responsive to any point I have actually made.
WotC is specifically adding good NPCs and organizations all the time, and when they do include dragons, they give them the same fluff writeup. So, you have zero case.
What is the fluff writeup in AD&D, 2e, or 3e that explains why good dragons aren't going around solving the world's problems. (I don't mention 4e because I already discussed what 4e's solution has been... though I'm fairly certian you'll ignore this statement too.)
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1 year ago ::
Jan 17, 2012 - 10:01AM
#74
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Date Joined:
Aug 30, 2010
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For the fourth time, what objection do you think I'm making? Because what you just wrote doesn't appear to be responsive to any point I have actually made.
That's the thing, you haven't made a point. You are complaining that the game does not tell you what to do with assumptions you added to it. Those assumptions: 1) there are a lot of gold dragons 2) the default mode for any good creature is militant crusader, and deviations from this mode need to be explained. These things are not in the game material.
You, Wrecan, added them. If you have a problem, then you, Wrecan, need to take it up with yourself.
What is the fluff writeup in AD&D, 2e, or 3e that explains why good dragons aren't going around solving the world's problems.
It is going to depend on setting. Your answer in Dragonlance is going to be different in Forgotten Realms. And, it's going to depend on the dragon, just like every other freaken NPC or NPC organization ever made.
Race. Makes. No. Difference.
(I don't mention 4e because I already discussed what 4e's solution has been... though I'm fairly certian you'll ignore this statement too.)
Not ignored. Just completely irrelevant.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 17, 2012 - 10:43AM
#75
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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For the fourth time, what objection do you think I'm making? Because what you just wrote doesn't appear to be responsive to any point I have actually made.
That's the thing, you haven't made a point.
If that were true, all your responses to date would be nonsensical because you clearly thought I had a point woth responding to.
What is the fluff writeup in AD&D, 2e, or 3e that explains why good dragons aren't going around solving the world's problems.
It is going to depend on setting.
The you were wrong to say that the entries on dragons included such fluff.
You're arguing just to be a victor. So long.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 17, 2012 - 11:00AM
#76
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Date Joined:
Aug 30, 2010
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The you were wrong to say that the entries on dragons included such fluff.
And you are wrong for saying I said such a thing. I aid that the only times dragons were specifically included in the game were in established settings, and if they were then included they were given the same treatment as any NPC or NPC organization that those settings included. This may come as a shock, but the monster manuals are NOT established settings. Eberron is an established setting. Faerun is an established setting. Nentir Vale is an established setting.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 17, 2012 - 3:59PM
#77
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Date Joined:
Dec 20, 2009
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For anyone who has an issue with an entire species of dragons being classified as one alignment I have a couple of suggestions for you. Firstly they are magical creatures, whos to say they aren't magically forced into being a certain alignment by their existence.
For a more intricate answer, I vaguely recall an old Dragonlance book in which I think it was something like there was a green dragon who for some reason had something like some gully dwarves as slaves but in time came to actually care for them and in fact looked after them not only for selfish reasons, his/her affection for them had become true and acted selflessly for their survival. During the course of the book it mentions the green dragons in fact slowly losing scales and new scales growing of a different colour. By the end of the book the green dragon had actually turned into a copper or bronze dragon or something. So don't think of it being that say red dragons are a species, but rather red and gold dragons are a species and their colouring alters magically based on their actions.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 24, 2012 - 5:53PM
#78
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2010
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These dragons are more like the "civilized" mortal races; they're motivated by greed, hate, companionship, comfort, amusement, etc. and recognize that civility is useful for aquiring many of these.
A major character in a recent campaign was an adult copper dragon. He kept a male half-elf lover, housed an outcast wizard and helped provide her with ritual components/research material in exchange for her service, and offered protection to certain small villages nearby in exchange for luxury goods.
My players wanted a way to steal an NPC friend (a spy) from mid-air in a large battle (off of his hypogriff). The dragon could care less, until he realized the spy was a general and therefore was fitted with rare magic armor. They rode the dragon into the battle, saved their friend, and blasted their way out as the army's aerial fleet converged to save their general. Was a hell of a mission with some close calls. The party saved their friend and the dragon made off with a new and rare shiny.
tl:dr
Dragons aren't just for killing
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1 year ago ::
Jan 25, 2012 - 5:26PM
#79
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Date Joined:
Jul 11, 2011
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It's been said before, but I think it bears repeating. The way I present dragons in my setting is that they are all sentient beings that act according to their own individual morality, which does not always fit with the standard definition of good and evil. For example, the Green Dragon was a long-time ally of the Darkwood elves. When the humans began conquering the continent, bringing them in direct conflict with the elves, the Green Dragon went to fight them. He terrorised the humans, razing their towns to the ground, capturing and eating them, taking their treasure to bring back to his lair. Finally, a veteran general came up with a plan to kill the Green Dragon. He organized for his army to meet the dragon head on, and when the dragon appeared, he challenged it to a one-on-one battle. The dragon thought that this idea was so funny that he agreed, and even took on the form of a humanoid to "make it more fair". He was very surprised when the general stuck him through the chest with a weapon specifically crafted to kill dragons.
Who is good and who is evil depends on who's writing the history books.
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