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Switch to Forum Live View Technicalities for a lot of attacks
1 year ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 2:30PM #1
Aleolus
Date Joined: Jul 5, 2007
Posts: 448
OK, so I was thinking through this, and in all technicallities this would work, so long as DM allows it, for a lot of attacks with a high amount of damage.

If you want to get technical about it, any creature that is humanoid in build has 5 natual attacks, all of which are Unarmed Strikes.  One each with the right arm, left arm, right leg, left leg, and head.  Because of that, they qualify for the Multiattack and Improved Multiattack feats.  Now, with those feats, you can change out your normal full attack for one attack with each of your natural attacks at your highest BAB.

Next, the Monk's Flurry of Blows ability states that when you use it you make a full attack at your normal BAB and get an extra attack, but all your attacks take a certain penalty (before a certain level at least).  Combine that with Improved Multiattack and you get six attacks, all at your highest BAB, only taking the penalty for your Flurry, if any.  And, as you go up in Monk levels, you would get a second extra attack, putting your total up to seven
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 3:07PM #2
StevenO
Date Joined: Apr 9, 2004
Posts: 14,065
Huh?

I don't know where all of that is coming from but even disrgarding a number of judgement errors I'd point out that Multi-attack depends on a character having more than four "arms" which your typical humanoid doesn't have.  I'd also remind you that natural attacks fall under a slightly different category than weapon attacks when it comes to how many you can make.

I'd also be interested in seeing how you think a humanoid could make five natural attacks without starting on the ground and with having any chance at hitting.  Just ignoring how unsuitable most of a humaniod's "natural" attacks would be you still need the character to stay upright to deliver those attack.  I'm hard pressed to think of any land based creature that can normally attack with all of its limbs in the same round.  I know big cats can get a bite and two claw attacks but to bringing in the back feet would typically happen only in a "rake" situation and that has its own rules.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 3:30PM #3
Aleolus
Date Joined: Jul 5, 2007
Posts: 448
OK, here's my logic.

First, Multiattack simply has "Possessing three or more natural attacks" as a prerequisite.  If you take into account what I stated of each limb being a separate 'unarmed strike', which is a natural attack, that means humans qualify for it, due to them having 5.

Second, if you watch people who practice Muy Thai, they literally use their entire body as a weapon, which includes both legs, both arms and their head, all within seconds of each other. This is essentially what you would be doing, a roundhouse kick with one leg, flipping which leg is on the ground so they can do a snap kick with the other, spinning back around so you are facing them while elbowing them with one arm, throwing a short jab with the other arm, then slamming your head into theirs.  And so on.  Now, I would be more than willing to state that it requires a LOT of training to be able to do so without throwing yourself on the ground, but Monks have to go through intensive training just to BE a Monk, so it seems to be like it works.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 3:52PM #4
Tempest_Stormwind
Date Joined: Jun 20, 2004
Posts: 4,779

Jan 11, 2012 -- 3:30PM, Aleolus wrote:

OK, here's my logic.

First, Multiattack simply has "Possessing three or more natural attacks" as a prerequisite.  If you take into account what I stated of each limb being a separate 'unarmed strike', which is a natural attack, that means humans qualify for it, due to them having 5.



Incorrect. Unarmed strike is technically an armed attack. It's only the monk ability that lets it count as both armed and natural (and even then, they aren't actually natural - they only benefit from things like Magic Fang as well as Magic Weapon), or else you could do other things with it than this (such as making your iterative attacks with your sword and following it up with kicks at -5, as per secondary natural attack rules). 

Note how it's listed here, with the weapons, instead of under the natural attacks? Compare to the warforged, who have an explicit Slam natural attack.

Second, if you watch people who practice Muy Thai, they literally use their entire body as a weapon, which includes both legs, both arms and their head, all within seconds of each other. This is essentially what you would be doing, a roundhouse kick with one leg, flipping which leg is on the ground so they can do a snap kick with the other, spinning back around so you are facing them while elbowing them with one arm, throwing a short jab with the other arm, then slamming your head into theirs.  And so on.  Now, I would be more than willing to state that it requires a LOT of training to be able to do so without throwing yourself on the ground, but Monks have to go through intensive training just to BE a Monk, so it seems to be like it works.



That's the monk class feature working, and it explicitly say so: " A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. " That's exactly what you're describing.

Your "logic" is missing a stage, though. The monk version clearly defines how many attacks you can make with your unarmed attacks. You're claiming that everyone can do this, and do better than it, simply by having limbs. You're missing a logical step from your premise to your conclusion, especially since the premise seems to negate your argument.

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1 year ago  ::  Jan 12, 2012 - 5:07AM #5
The_Fred
Date Joined: Jan 4, 2012
Posts: 3,087
The mechanics for unarmed attacks and natural weapons are a bit screwed up, to be honest. If you look in this forum, I had some questions about unarmed attacks in just the next thread along from this.

Now, you *could* house-rule that unarmed and natural attacks are essentially the same. Humanoids get two arm slams and maybe a kick attack (though not two, since then they'd fall over). However, they'd suffer multiattack penalties, the damage would be nonlethal, and they'd provoke attacks of opportunity. That doesn't sound too crazy.

However, a Monk taking these three attacks, at an increased and lethal damage, could be overpowered. You'd have to adjust the monk's unarmed strike damage increase and flurry of blows to compensate.

You also assume that I can hit someone with all my limbs in a round. Hitting someone with each fist is not too hard, but to throw a kick in there as well is about as difficult as, say, making iterative attacks with a melee weapon, which you can only do when you get a BAB of +6 or higher. Remember that a Monk's attack don't come from a specific weapon. If a monk with two attacks makes a flurry for three, any of those could be a punch (with either hand), a kick (roundhouse, snap, front kick, spinning back kick, tornado kick, flying spinning side kick, whatever), a knee, an elbow, even a headbutt. Muay Thai is just a Monk doing a Flurry of Blows.

Now, I actually think there's potential for a homebrewed unarmed attack/natural weapon system which makes a bit more sense than the current one. However, as the rules stand, what you suggest doesn't work. You also can't really just say it works (as a house rule) since that screws up the balance elsewhere.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 19, 2012 - 10:09PM #6
MalikLucius
Date Joined: Sep 4, 2010
Posts: 187
Disregarding all other obvious holes in this argument (which have been thoroughly examined above), an 'Unarmed Strike' can be made with any part of the body. Making that body, essentially, one weapon. An individual with improved unarmed strike, even a monk, does not have multiple natural weapons; they just have multiple means of using one natural weapon.

I can't see a DM allowing technicality to determine that all beings with multiple limbs are capable with multiple attacks. What I can see is the DM ruling that by technicality all individuals with a brain are capable of suffering multiple strokes due to the mental strain of coordinating all the body's limbs in a manner beyond its usual function. (Sorry, couldn't resist )
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