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Switch to Forum Live View 5E Digital tools and false promises.
1 year ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 1:32PM #1
KM.549
Date Joined: Sep 24, 2002
Posts: 959
3rd ed had the etools/ master tools issue.

4th ed WOTC swore up and down again and again that these awsome digital tools would be out at launch. A few weeks before launch they put a little news story on the site that the tools would not be ready at launch.  with other news stories posted between then and 4e launch, it gets buried.  Then no word about the tools from WOTC until a few weeks after launch.


So what false promises will WOTC make with 5th ed and digital tools? You know they are going to screw it up somehow.

WOTC better know people are watching what they say, and don't say with digital tools and DnD.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 1:45PM #2
Mand12
Date Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Posts: 16,991
So, the last year of dramatic improvements in the tools is...what?  My imagination?
D&D Next = D&D:  Quantum Edition
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 2:02PM #3
KM.549
Date Joined: Sep 24, 2002
Posts: 959

Jan 10, 2012 -- 1:45PM, Mand12 wrote:

So, the last year of dramatic improvements in the tools is...what?  My imagination?





I never said that  they never got any tools up and runing. But they did promise that all of them would be up on 4th ed launch day and were not. 

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1 year ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 5:01PM #4
bone_naga
Date Joined: Aug 30, 2007
Posts: 9,961

Jan 10, 2012 -- 1:32PM, KM.549 wrote:

3rd ed had the etools/ master tools issue.

4th ed WOTC swore up and down again and again that these awsome digital tools would be out at launch. A few weeks before launch they put a little news story on the site that the tools would not be ready at launch.  with other news stories posted between then and 4e launch, it gets buried.  Then no word about the tools from WOTC until a few weeks after launch.


So what false promises will WOTC make with 5th ed and digital tools? You know they are going to screw it up somehow.

WOTC better know people are watching what they say, and don't say with digital tools and DnD.



Well the only promise they've made so far was saying that the 4e tools would remain up and running for those that want them.

I doubt they are going to go down the same route again. I think this time whatever they announce will be something that is already finished or at least in a testing phase where they just need to work out a few bugs before release.

Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls.
God of ownership and possession.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 10, 2012 - 8:48PM #5
Damon_Tor
Date Joined: Jun 20, 2009
Posts: 3,590

Jan 10, 2012 -- 1:45PM, Mand12 wrote:

So, the last year of dramatic improvements in the tools is...what?  My imagination?




Whoa whoa whoa.

Let's take a step back there.

The tools are, at best, as good as they were in the Fall of 2010.  The "dramatic imrpovements" only exist in light of what the new tools had been at launch.

That said, I do think 5e will have a better digital rollout.  They'll have a better digital rollout because PW is going to be in charge of their entire digital suite.

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1 year ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 5:54AM #6
Mand12
Date Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Posts: 16,991
Monster Builder alone is vastly superior to the prior offering.

Your assessment is based on outdated information.
D&D Next = D&D:  Quantum Edition
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 8:04AM #7
Janx_14
Date Joined: Sep 19, 2007
Posts: 3,449

Jan 11, 2012 -- 5:54AM, Mand12 wrote:

Monster Builder alone is vastly superior to the prior offering.

Your assessment is based on outdated information.




I'm a bit confused as to whats changed, I havent used it much, but seems the same as the old monster builder, but with pictures for some monsters. Most of what was bad about the old one is that wizards seemed to "mysteriously" stop support for before announcing the change to online.


That said DDI also has the VT which it didn't in 2010 (not that i use it either).



I think adapting the various tools for 5e is probably being looked in to. The VT should be easily transferable, dice rolls are dice rolls, and squares are squares. The other tools already have frameworks to modify.

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1 year ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 2:07PM #8
KM.549
Date Joined: Sep 24, 2002
Posts: 959

Jan 10, 2012 -- 8:48PM, Damon_Tor wrote:



That said, I do think 5e will have a better digital rollout.  They'll have a better digital rollout because PW is going to be in charge of their entire digital suite.




WOTC orginally was going  to have a 3rd party do the digital tools for 4th ed, too.  Just saying. 

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1 year ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 3:04PM #9
Dane_McArdy
Date Joined: Nov 6, 2008
Posts: 4,756
There were and are bigger problems with DDi then the fact they didn't have them ready at launch. The fact that it's been shown that they announced the delay of the tools in two places on the front page of the website, and that delay would be months, they hardly hide anything.

As for having a third party do the 4E tools, they did have a third party. That third party failed and they took inhouse to try and deliver.

The points you love to stick too, are so minor and unimportant, and you often get them wrong.

It's more important I think that they never delivered the full suite of tools. And of those tools they did get up and running, there are features they have been telling us they would have for years, but still can't deliver.

Chances are, they are really going to make every effort to have the digital aspect of 5E give you more then 4E digital tools, simply to get people to see it as more attractive.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 11, 2012 - 5:51PM #10
mudbunny
Date Joined: Sep 28, 2006
Posts: 8,805
This was posted over on ENWorld by the poster Truename, and I think it is particularly relevant:
Spoiler: Show

This is my field. (Companies hire me to teach them how to organize and manage software development teams.)

The biggest issue is that software is intangible. It's like the proverbial iceberg; for the 10% of the software you can see, there's 90% more required to make that work. And software development is a huge amount of work. Polished, complete products typically take 5 or more people working for months (at least) or years. Big products take much more than that.

But nobody, not even programmers, are good at estimating how much work software development requires. Remember, it's an iceberg. In one study, 90% of projects took longer than the programmers estimated, even though they updated their estimates as work progressed*. Half of them took more than twice as long. These results are typical.

*www.toddlittleweb.com/Papers/...ncertain...

So even the best-meaning software team has a good chance of taking more than twice as long as their good-faith estimate.

Now for the second-biggest issue. The people hiring software teams don't understand how costly and risky software development is. When they get a schedule estimate, they think of the 10% they can see, and respond, "How it could possibly take so long?" (Remember, this is a reaction to an estimate that's almost certainly too optimistic already.) And then they put pressure on the team to go faster.

Programmers respond to the pressure by cutting corners. Here's the thing, though. The way you cut corners in software development is to be sloppy in the way you design and write source code. But sloppiness creates bugs and makes the source code harder to understand. This is called "technical debt." The net result is that if you do this for more than a handful of weeks, you actually end up taking longer than you would have if you had just tried to keep things clean.

They also respond to the pressure by focusing on the 10% of the code you can see (such as the 3D VTT demo shown when 4e was released) and not the 90% required to make it work for real. This shows progress to the business folks, but creates unrealistic expectations about how long things will actually take.

So here's how honest, well-meaning people create software debacles. This happens all the frikkin' time.

1. Company asks software team for some software, and asks how long it will take, so they can plan their budget, marketing, and so forth.

2. Software team creates an estimate that's 2-4x too low. They think they need 9 months and they actually need 2 years.

3. Company flips out and says 9 months is too long and too expensive. "My nephew could do this in two weeks in his spare time." Demands that the software be done cheaper and quicker.

4. Software team caves and says they'll be done sooner. After all, their estimate is just an educated guess; there's no proof, and maybe they actually will be done sooner.

5. Team works on the 10% people can see first, to establish good will and show progress. It's also the most fun part to write.

6. Company is overjoyed at rapid progress and happily signs checks. "I knew they were sandbagging us with that nine-month estimate."

7. Team starts working on the remaining 90%. Company starts pressuring for more results. "You've already shown us everything working, what's taking so long?" Checks signed less happily.

8. Team takes shortcuts, introduces bugs. Work slows down. Strings company along with increasingly desperate promises of progress.

9. Company gets more and more impatient and eventually demands to see the actual software, not the demo they got over a year ago.

10. Actual software fails in a big, spectacular way. It's riddled with bugs, doesn't work on the public Internet, and completely fails to protect company's IP. Furthermore, the source code is so badly written it's pretty much impossible to recover.

11. Product is cancelled, team fired, and work starts over.

There are ways of preventing this; the set of approaches I use are called "Agile software development," but it's by no means easy and most software teams don't even know they don't know enough.





The set of tools that they are trying to get out under the current edition is, if we are being honest, their first kick at the can. The tools that they will be developping for D&D Next should, assuming they carry over a significant amount of management experience, be significantly better.
Mudbunny
SVCL for DDI

Before you post, think of the Monkeysphere

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