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Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Character Optim.. Sword of Kings (Legendary Sovereign L30 feature)
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 08, 2012 - 1:35AM #1
ThatWasTotallyNinja
Date Joined: Jan 21, 2011
Posts: 1,092
Two different ideas for how to use the Sword of Kings feature:

1) EDIT: Updated with the awesome repeat-usage idea from Reg06.

Choose Power Strike (power-swap for it).

Sword of Kings says that you do not expend the power unless you miss; an attack that does not roll cannot be a miss, so Power Strike will never be expended.

Now, when you hit with an MBA, use Power Strike. Then use it again, because it wasn't expended (do not resolve the first PS, and do not resolve the original attack; you are using another power in response to the same trigger). Repeat 1000 times, then finally let the attacks resolve. Your MBA gets 3000[W] extra damage.

Power Strike is "extra damage," not a bonus to your roll, so it is allowed to stack with itself. And since you have it from power-swapping, you can use it more than once per turn.

2) EDIT: Updated with Mul Battle Slave suggestion from mellored.

For a bit more fun, be a Mul Battle Slave (or get ridiculously high hit bonuses + rerolls so you only miss on double-1s). Take the Iron Wolf Warrior theme, and then use Iron Wolf's Bound from that theme as your Sword of Kings power.

You can use IWB repeatedly without expending it as long as you keep hitting. And since it is never expended, you can actually use it to trigger itself (after initially triggering it via some other attack). In other words, hit once, then shift back and forth across the battlefield, dealing 4[W] each time and repositioning the field so you can continue attacking. There's no limit on attacks per turn, because it's a No Action.

If the enemies started out mildly clustered, you may well be able to kill/strongly damage all of them in one turn this way.

Note that even if you are prone+restrained+dazed, and all enemies are immune to fear, this combo becomes "Alternate through attacking each enemy in reach, repeatedly, until only one enemy is left alive." And this can be used on every melee hit, even ones that are not on your turn. It is severely bent, at the least.
I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.

However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 08, 2012 - 1:57AM #2
erachima
Date Joined: Sep 4, 2010
Posts: 7,676
1. No, not going to be worth it to swap regardless. You have to remember, this is a capstone feature. We want something a lot more impactful than +3[W] to our basics, and it's not a practical build option because you're only getting this at 30.

2. While this is a much worthier use of the feature, Iron Wolf Bound has two slight problems that make it markedly less practical than you're thinking. The first is that you always miss on a 1, which means that the sequence has a large (about 40%) chance of failure before killing even one standard enemy, and once it does your trick's over. And that's assuming tofu blocks who can't kill your combo via IAs, which a lot can. The second is that in epic enemy teams are rarely going to be balanced. At capstone, it's much more likely you're fighting a big monster and a chunk of allies, where having an "infinite" combo that requires alternation is going to be a very dodgy affair because your combo now goes "charge solo, move to minion, smack minion, minion explodes and prones me, cry."

As a result of these two factors, it is far more practical to select the extremely powerful but non-infinite Hurricane of Blades, with which you'll have to miss 4 times in a row in order to end your chain.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 08, 2012 - 9:44AM #3
mellored
Date Joined: Jul 8, 2008
Posts: 19,512
Iron wolf mul slayer / mul battleslave /restless legendary soverien.

Now you never loose wolfbound.  And can still grab hurricane of blades.
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my builds Show

F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter.  With some warlord stuff.  Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch   Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1.  If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation.  5 of these will end anything.  Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways.  Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit.  Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones.  Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 08, 2012 - 10:12AM #4
Reg06
Date Joined: Jul 14, 2008
Posts: 3,850
Legendary Sovereign + Blood-Crazed Berserker is what you're looking for. Hit once and then use Mutilating Strike until the monster is dead. Rinse and repeat until all monsters are dead. Any reason why this infinite combo doesn't work?

Things that would let you keep attacking during the first turn, and help one-shot the the encounter;
- Reaper's Axe
- Iron Wolf no action encounter powers
- Mobile Warrior + shift enhancers/teleport
- Long reach
- Free action attack powers and immediate actions, and readied actions
One-half of the tabletop gaming news podcast Going Last
Co-author on AoA 2-3 and 4-1.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 08, 2012 - 10:52AM #5
Hephalumph
Date Joined: Oct 6, 2011
Posts: 420
wait, what infinite combo?

    Sword of Kings (30th level): Choose one encounter attack power you know that has the weapon keyword. Whenever you use that power, it is not expended unless you miss every target.



Okay, so you don't expend the encounter power - you don't immediately re-trigger it.

Mutilating Strike

Your vicious strike inflicts an appalling wound that leaves your enemy reeling in shock and horror.


Encounter        Martial, Weapon
No Action      Special


Trigger: You hit an enemy with a melee basic attack using a weapon.


Effect: The enemy takes 1[W] extra damage from the attack, and it is dazed until the end of your next turn.



So you hit, trigger this as a no action, and don't expend it. You don't re-trigger it unless you hit again.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 08, 2012 - 11:00AM #6
Reg06
Date Joined: Jul 14, 2008
Posts: 3,850

Jan 8, 2012 -- 10:52AM, Hephalumph wrote:

You don't re-trigger it unless you hit again.




Why? It has no restriction on uses per turn (unlike Power Strike), and the triggering action doesn't resolve until you are done using triggered actions.

One-half of the tabletop gaming news podcast Going Last
Co-author on AoA 2-3 and 4-1.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 08, 2012 - 11:03AM #7
Mand12
Date Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Posts: 17,070
Because triggers don't happen continuously?
D&D Next = D&D:  Quantum Edition
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 08, 2012 - 11:08AM #8
ThatWasTotallyNinja
Date Joined: Jan 21, 2011
Posts: 1,092

Jan 8, 2012 -- 1:57AM, erachima wrote:

1. No, not going to be worth it to swap regardless. You have to remember, this is a capstone feature. We want something a lot more impactful than +3[W] to our basics, and it's not a practical build option because you're only getting this at 30.

2. While this is a much worthier use of the feature, Iron Wolf Bound has two slight problems that make it markedly less practical than you're thinking. The first is that you always miss on a 1, which means that the sequence has a large (about 40%) chance of failure before killing even one standard enemy, and once it does your trick's over. And that's assuming tofu blocks who can't kill your combo via IAs, which a lot can. The second is that in epic enemy teams are rarely going to be balanced. At capstone, it's much more likely you're fighting a big monster and a chunk of allies, where having an "infinite" combo that requires alternation is going to be a very dodgy affair because your combo now goes "charge solo, move to minion, smack minion, minion explodes and prones me, cry."

As a result of these two factors, it is far more practical to select the extremely powerful but non-infinite Hurricane of Blades, with which you'll have to miss 4 times in a row in order to end your chain.



For 1, you're probably right that it's not an idea worth building your character around, but I was just pointing out the concept. And it's certainly a nice way to use the feature, think of how many MBAs a character can make (plus powers like Overwhelming Strike that act like MBAs)...I don't think most encounter powers would be a better use of SoK than Power Strike.

For 2: missing on 1 can be gotten around with rerolls, especially if you're an Avenger with a couple reroll-granting items. Obviously if you're going to be using this trick, then you're going to optimize your character such that it keeps hitting.

IAs are definitely a problem, as are things like exploding enemies...but as long as it's a reaction, doesn't the push 4 help take care of this? I'm not sure, I am not as encyclopedically familiar with the rules as some.

Otherwise, Hindering Shield + Overwhelming Impact to daze and thus shut down any IRs at least.

Plus, even if you do miss or get stopped in the middle of the combo...just attack again. Most characters by this point should have multiple ways to get more than 1 attack in a round. Since you still have all those accuracy bonuses, you will hit, and the combo triggers all over again. If you trigger this combo with Hurricane of Blades, then you can miss 3 different times and still keep it going.

Jan 8, 2012 -- 9:44AM, mellored wrote:

Iron wolf mul slayer / mul battleslave /restless legendary soverien. Now you never loose wolfbound. And can still grab hurricane of blades.



Good times, good times.

Jan 8, 2012 -- 10:12AM, Reg06 wrote:

Legendary Sovereign + Blood-Crazed Berserker is what you're looking for. Hit once and then use Mutilating Strike until the monster is dead. Rinse and repeat until all monsters are dead. Any reason why this infinite combo doesn't work?

Things that would let you keep attacking during the first turn, and help one-shot the the encounter;
- Reaper's Axe
- Iron Wolf no action encounter powers
- Mobile Warrior + shift enhancers/teleport
- Long reach
- Free action attack powers and immediate actions, and readied actions



Mutilating Strike has no way of triggering itself. Iron Wolf's Bound can, because it makes an attack roll.

Mutilating Strike is of course a nice way to use this (daze on every MBA is always nice), but it doesn't do any kind of "infinite combo" hijinks.

I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.

However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 08, 2012 - 12:33PM #9
ThatWasTotallyNinja
Date Joined: Jan 21, 2011
Posts: 1,092

Jan 8, 2012 -- 11:00AM, Reg06 wrote:

Jan 8, 2012 -- 10:52AM, Hephalumph wrote:

You don't re-trigger it unless you hit again.




Why? It has no restriction on uses per turn (unlike Power Strike), and the triggering action doesn't resolve until you are done using triggered actions.



After giving this a bit of thought, I think you are right about this in terms of it being RAW. Let me explain for everyone else:

1) Sword of Kings says that the power never expends until you miss with it. It is not the same as saying "you automatically recover this power if don't miss any target." That implies you expended it at some point; Sword of Kings says it doesn't expend in the first place.

2) There's no limit to the number of powers you can use at once in response to a given trigger.

Therefore, when Mutilating Strike's trigger is fulfilled, you use Mutilating Strike. You still have the Mutilating Strike power, it is not expended. So you use it again, off the same trigger, before even resolving the first Mutilating Strike (or resolving the original attack). Repeat this 1000 times, then let it resolve. Mutilating Strike adds 1000[W] to the attack.

It flies massively against RAI, but I don't see any reason why it's not RAW.

Also, there's no reason you couldn't do this with Power Strike, as long as you power-swapped for it. The Power Strike power has no 1/turn limit; that limit comes from the class features of the Power Strike classes. We are not using the Improved Power Strike class feature, so we were never given the 1/turn restriction.

I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.

However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 08, 2012 - 12:47PM #10
Velkon
Date Joined: Jun 29, 2011
Posts: 399
There doesn't seem to be any RAW preventing you from triggering the same ability multiple times off the same trigger, no. Usually that task is done via making the ability an expendable power, or giving it a 1/round or 1/turn restriction. Since this is neither expendable, nor does it have a restriction, I see no reason why you can't.

I would put it under the same category of cheese as Mellored's revenants. Completely cheesy as all hell, but legal. Barely. Jail bait legal.
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Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Character Optim.. Sword of Kings (Legendary Sovereign L30 feature)
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