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1 year ago ::
Jan 03, 2012 - 12:30PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Dec 23, 2009
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Hey,
So I've had some success running PCs against out-of-tier threats before. My campaigns tend to be overwhelmingly mid- to high-Heroic level (like 5 to 9) but from time to time I like to throw something truly horrendous and overpowered at my PCs, always with an 'out' or 'equalizer' to give them a chance.
I'm one who prefers not to down-level monsters (i.e. I don't take a level 20 monster, put it in the engine, and reduce it's stats to make it level 6 or 7). If the Manual says it's a level 20, I 'trust the ecology' as it were.
Like, I'm thinking of running a campaign in an abandoned dwarven city quite similar to Moria. Naturally, the deepest levels contain a level-27 Balor tromping around.
I'd like my 5th-level PCs to *have* to go down there to advance the story (and get somewhere else). I don't, of course, expect them to fight and win. What I plan to do is have then run for their lives across rubble and an unstable floor (and, of course, narrow bridge) while this thing chases them. Thus, "combat" with this thing consists of a skill challenge.
Here's the thing, though: These guys are going to *try* and fight this thing, I just know they are. And they'll be dead in 2 rounds. Any ideas how to convince them not to?
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1 year ago ::
Jan 03, 2012 - 1:34PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Nov 27, 2011
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If the mine was collapsing before they ran into this thing, perhaps they would be more inclined to run FASTER instead of fighting it. The balor would just be another obstacle they face while trying to escape with their lives.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 03, 2012 - 1:56PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Aug 30, 2007
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I often run games similar to that. For one, I always warn players before the campaign starts that not everything is scaled to their level so if they insist on taking on every threat they encounter they are going to die.
Next, you have to provide some sort of cue that this is way beyond their abilities. Some players memorize the MM, if you have any of those types they might pick this up right away. If they have an expendable NPC, have the monster one-shot him in a very graphic manner (preferably an NPC with respectable combat ability, it isn't very terrifying for a beast to slay the farmer's 14 year-old daughter). Also, if it has an attack that is strong enough to really hurt the PCs without one-shotting them, have it use that to give them the hint (if the power is close, like might kill them on a crit, just be sure to fudge the dice on that first attack). If it has a power that can bloody them in one hit, they'll get the picture. If it's an area power, even better. Then have it make an off-hand comment like "Did that hurt? Good, because I'm just getting warmed up..."
Owner and Proprietor of the House of Trolls.
God of ownership and possession.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 03, 2012 - 2:01PM
#4
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Dead in two rounds? More like the Balor's first freakin' turn...
Hate to say it, but what you're trying to do just does not work, and I highly doubt that these out of tier attempts you've made in the past are as successful as you'd like to believe they are. Levels and bonuses work like they do because PCs have a really hard time hitting anything five or more levels above their own level, and they don't do enough damage to really take out a high level solo quickly in the first place. Combat drags on forever, and even epic tier level 30 characters can be pushed to the limit when faced against a good level 35 monster as part of an encounter. Even if you do something to scale back damage and defenses on the monster, you're just leveling the monster down without actually leveling it down. To this, if you do put them up against this Balor, and you know they are going to try and fight it, they will do it, and they will die. End of story. Nothing short of DM fiat saying "you know you can't fight this thing, so you're not going to even try" will keep them from doing it, and that's just boring as all get out.
instead, why not put them up against a level 9 enemy with the same idea? It's easier to run for actual combat if they do try to fight it, and it won't slaughter them all in one turn. Nothing wrong with giving the PCs a challenge that is actually appropriate for their levels. Why be a hero if you can't be heroic and fight the monster instead of running away like a sissy? There's no merit to throwing them up against an enemy they have no earth chance at all of beating aside from your own personal amusement on the matter...
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1 year ago ::
Jan 03, 2012 - 2:06PM
#5
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If the PCs have no chance of overcoming the obstacle in combat, then it is not a combat encounter. Do not dress it as one.
Do not roll initiative. Do not get out the maps and minis. Don't let players make attack rolls. When they declare their intent to attack, narrate the monster as avoiding or shrugging off the attack and then backhanding the PC and sending him sprawling like he was a bothersome insect.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 03, 2012 - 2:07PM
#6
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
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If you don't intend the PCs to murder it, don't put it in the dungeon.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 03, 2012 - 6:57PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Mar 29, 2006
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I think it's all about your social contract with your players. If they, as many of the posters here, believe that their characters should never encounter anything that completely overshadows them, they will be upset at this plan. If you all agree that high level monsters don't suddenly appear as their characters gain levels, and that they might encounter creatures they can't kill yet, they might be a bit more cautious. The secret is making sure you're all on the same page, and then finding a way to signal them when such an event occurs.
To put a literary spin on it, Strider, Frodo and the hobbits encountered the Nazgul very early on, and clearly stood no chance against them. They fled (a skill challenge?) and survived. Later, Merry helped Eowyn kill the Witch King. I think it was more satisfying and significant because of their earlier meeting.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 03, 2012 - 11:50PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Mar 29, 2005
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If you don't intend the PCs to murder it, don't put it in the dungeon.
I would amend that as, "If you aren't prepared for the PCs to murder it, don't put it in the dungeon."
Just because they can doesn't mean they should, but just because they shouldn't, doesn't mean they won't. The DM should always allow of the possibility that the party will kill whatever he throws at them, as long as it has combat stats. As they say, "if it has stats, we can kill it."
The exception is when you have stat-less entities or deities against non-epic PCs. These, you don't have to worry about the party killing, because they literally can't.
Ever feel like people on these forums can't possibly understand how wrong they are? Feeling trolled? Don't get mad. Report Post.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 04, 2012 - 12:19AM
#9
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Date Joined:
May 13, 2009
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Look the players in the eyes. Tell them: "You cannot hurt this thing. Not even on a 20. It can kill you without rolling if you engage it in battle. What are you going to do?"
The first person to move closer to it, dies. Instantly. No rolls.
That'll set the tone for the rest of the time they're playing with you. You could give them a second warning, of course. Don't make it "Are you sure you want to do that?". Make it a very clear "If you do this, your character dies. No dice will be rolled."
If it's not a combat encounter, it's not a combat encounter.
Epic Dungeon Master Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen! Your Kingdom awaits!Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 04, 2012 - 12:25AM
#10
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
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The first person to move closer to it, dies. Instantly. No rolls.
And suddenly it's 1977 again.
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