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Switch to Forum Live View Sick and tired of maps...
1 year ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 12:38PM #1
Cyber-Dave
  • I am a plot device.
Date Joined: Sep 20, 2004
Posts: 9,455

So, I have decided I absolutely hate map-heavy rule sets. I REALLY prefer more narrative approaches. Unfortunately 4e is a very map heavy rule set. Other than this one feature, for the most part, I really like 4e. I am wondering if anyone knows of a decent set of house rules designed to transform 4e into a game that makes use of narrative combat instead of map-heavy, board-gamey combat.

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1 year ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 12:39PM #2
Herrozerro
Date Joined: Aug 13, 2007
Posts: 5,133
fluid 4e

at-will.omnivangelist.net/2009/12/fluid-... 
Play whatever the **** you want.

Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot.

Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 12:43PM #3
Kalnaur
Date Joined: Oct 19, 2008
Posts: 4,874

Dec 29, 2011 -- 12:38PM, Cyber-Dave wrote:


So, I have decided I absolutely hate map-heavy rule sets. I REALLY prefer more narrative approaches. Unfortunately 4e is a very map heavy rule set. Other than this one feature, for the most part, I really like 4e. I am wondering if anyone knows of a decent set of house rules designed to transform 4e into a game that makes use of narrative combat instead of map-heavy, board-gamey combat.




Could you define narrative combat?  I am not sure I really understand the approach.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- )

Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly.
Dimitry: God I love being Neutral.
4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition.
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Feb 3, 2011 -- 6:30AM, Dane_McArdy wrote:

You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.


Apr 26, 2011 -- 10:42AM, Timmeh wrote:

If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.

quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?

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1 year ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 12:49PM #4
wrecan
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Date Joined: Jun 23, 2005
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Learn SARN-FU
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 12:59PM #5
Kalnaur
Date Joined: Oct 19, 2008
Posts: 4,874

Dec 29, 2011 -- 12:49PM, wrecan wrote:

Learn SARN-FU






Totally confused now . . .

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- )

Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly.
Dimitry: God I love being Neutral.
4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition.
Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes Show

Feb 3, 2011 -- 6:30AM, Dane_McArdy wrote:

You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.


Apr 26, 2011 -- 10:42AM, Timmeh wrote:

If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.

quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?

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1 year ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 1:02PM #6
Tony_Vargas
Date Joined: Sep 26, 2001
Posts: 10,714
I don't see what's non-narrative about using a map... ?

But, if you do like a narrativist aproach, I can see how you'd like 4e in general, it's very friendly to that aproach.  Anyway...

I've run Champions without a hex map, and it has fairly precise movement rules and even 'knockback' which works something like a more complicated 4e push effect, so I know it's possible.   The DM just has to take responsibility for positioning.  Instead of players keeping track of where enemies and terrain features are, they just ask you a lot of questions like "can I charge the ogre without having to go through the wall of fire?" or vaguely conditional actions like "I move close enough to minimize my range penalty before I fire..."

Nothing too difficult if you're willing to wing it a litte.  You have to at least give the players the impression that you have everything 'in your head,' though, or they'll start to think that movement-related powers don't really matter...
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 1:33PM #7
Kalnaur
Date Joined: Oct 19, 2008
Posts: 4,874
Ooooooh.  So narrative means describing the entire scene. 

What are the benefits?

Because as it stands, that sounds like a lot of work for not much payoff.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- )

Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly.
Dimitry: God I love being Neutral.
4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition.
Salla: opinionated, but commonly right.
fun quotes Show

Feb 3, 2011 -- 6:30AM, Dane_McArdy wrote:

You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.


Apr 26, 2011 -- 10:42AM, Timmeh wrote:

If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.

quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?

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1 year ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 1:36PM #8
CrowScape
Date Joined: Aug 30, 2010
Posts: 1,290

Dec 29, 2011 -- 1:33PM, Kalnaur wrote:

Ooooooh.  So narrative means describing the entire scene.



By drawing a map, perhaps?

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1 year ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 2:04PM #9
wrecan
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Dec 29, 2011 -- 1:33PM, Kalnaur wrote:

Ooooooh.  So narrative means describing the entire scene. 

What are the benefits?



SARN-FU 2: Why to SARN-FU

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1 year ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 3:09PM #10
mbeacom
Date Joined: Jun 15, 2010
Posts: 1,169
4E combat is incredibly map focused. It is, perhaps, its greatest strength, and depending on your tastes, its greatest weakness. So I totally get what you're saying.

With regard to the Fluid 4E rules, I gave them a try and saw them as unneeded additional kludge. They kind of work but I didn't want a NEW ruleset to run 4E, I wanted to remove the grid heavy implimentation of 4E.

The short answer. It can't really be done without a bunch of new rules or a DM taking inordinate amounts of questions. 4E is so intensely designed around the assumption of a battle grid, minis and the like that it pretty much ceases to be 4E when you remove that. Many powers become useless without a grid.

And that is the solution. If you REALLY really want to make this work, here is how I was able to get to almost kind of sort of work.

You have to get your players on board with this, since there will be a lot of off limits material.

You also have to be open to collaborative combat descriptions. Let your players tell you what THEY see and trust them not to do things just to screw you and vice versa. If they feel like the battlefield exists as it does in their mind and they can contribute to that vision in a meaningful way, things will go more smoothly IMO>

Basically, you have to sort through your power choices and pick those powers that don't rely heavily on the grid. Striker powers are easy. Raw damage or ongoing damage is the simplest. For controllers, look for ongoing effects. Prone is a really good one because it allows for combat advantage without having to worry about adjacency or flanking. Avoid things that push/pull/slide since their effectiveness is mostly negated.  For leaders look for attack buffs/debuffs and raw healing. Avoid powers that grant an additional square of movement of free shifts, since those are pretty much useless. For defenders, look for marks that work when adjacent and then houserule them to work when engaged with the defender. Avoid auras since they're too hard to track without a grid. Now, as the DM, you have to do the same for monsters. Avoid monsters that have auras (unless you want to use an Aura 1 to mean anyone who actively engages that monster). Avoid monsters who push/pull/slide unless the forced movement results in the player engaging that monster toe to toe. Be careful with your use of skirmishers. They can really get hairy.

To sum it up, you can kind of make it work if you're VERY selective with the powers you choose.

Good luck!
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