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1 year ago  ::  Dec 28, 2011 - 8:45AM #1
nburg
Date Joined: Jul 22, 2008
Posts: 65
OK, I got a bit annoyed with LoH last night in a session with a dracolich vs. a level 18 party.  I'm the DM and I couldn't do squat to down the paladin.  She must have spent 5-6 LoHs in the fight.  I think it makes LoH stronger than any Leader's healing.  I think it should have a per encounter cap as well as the per day cap it currently is designed with.
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 28, 2011 - 8:55AM #2
thespaceinvader
Date Joined: Oct 28, 2010
Posts: 9,648
The Paladin probably spent all the LoH uses in one fight.  For the rest of the day, she's pretty stuffed.  And even then, she's probably wasted a bunch of better-spent build points on WIS, since you can only use it a number of times equal to your WIS mod.

It's a strong power, but it's a limited daily resource; it should be.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part.
The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight.

CB != rules source.
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 28, 2011 - 12:08PM #3
nburg
Date Joined: Jul 22, 2008
Posts: 65
Well, that's my fault then, since I grant them 3 attributes to bump at 4th, 8th, 14th...  Maybe I'll need to house rule 3 LoH per encounter (or whatever leaders would normally get per encounter) to remedy it.  I didn't like how restrictive a few classes get if they don't get the 3rd attribute bump, but obviously my meddling has mucked up the system.
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 12:41AM #4
thespaceinvader
Date Joined: Oct 28, 2010
Posts: 9,648
Yes, it has.  Uninformed meddling has this tendency.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part.
The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight.

CB != rules source.
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 29, 2011 - 1:42AM #5
Lady_Auralla
Date Joined: Feb 27, 2010
Posts: 818
LOH is a fine ower that helps paladin do their job defending in a unique fashion, its like any other finite resource very useful when used wisely and can get out of hand if stats are played around with. Whichever way you look at it it all comes down to healing surges, use encounters, skill challenges and travel to eat away at them and the encounter where it you want to be the main event will go roughly as planned. Ultimately dont punish players for wise use of a finite resource that goes against your "story".
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 30, 2011 - 4:53AM #6
Neutronium_Dragon
Date Joined: Aug 11, 2006
Posts: 5,777
Unless you're dealing with a Baladin, the typical paladin will be selecting Wisdom as one of their two stat increases anyway.

  In any case, I doubt that it's a problem. With a level 18 group, everyone has lots of resources. A leader-type who wants to have a high healing output at that level will easily outclass what that paladin can do.
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 30, 2011 - 1:46PM #7
DaBugbear
Date Joined: Oct 18, 2009
Posts: 331
Not knowing more of the set up, I would be inclined to agree with N_Dragon, as well... the stat bumps are probably not your real issue.

What is more likely the scenario here is a case of the "five minute work day" being felt to the extreme. I assume the draco-lich was the center piece battle of the game day, but did you have enough "on-level" fights leading up to it? If you had no encounters, or only maybe 1 other, or allowed the party the benefit of an extended rest before tackling the lich, then you got both barrels, with the "table knowledge" that this was the last fight, so they had no need to hold anything in reserve.

Next time, time permitting, load up on a bunch of Level-1 or Level+0 Encounters with no extended rest, to drain some of those resources. Also, have the same set up (maybe not with a dracolich, but you get the idea) and then about 3-4 rounds in, have another wave of monsters (alot of minions and skirmishers, maybe) come in from all sides of the map and start really mucking up your party's static (ie, predictable and safe) battle formation. Once your paladin is not the focus of all the healing in the group while the rest sit at a comfortably spread out vantage to deal damage, those LoHs won't hold up to some serious sustained firepower.

Also... feel free to ignore the Defender's mark at times. So, the paladin gets to burn the radiant vulnerable Draco-lich for 25 radiant damage, or something. Ouch, that hurts... man, that stung, but oh, boy is that squishier Cleric about to REALLY be surprised when he catches the full attack + action point action, going for the kill.

As a Defender player, I have realized that you don't often get the chance to USE your super cool Defender powers, as most DMs just honor the defender mark. SO, about once an encounter (more if the monsters are animalistic or really, really stupid...) I do something specifically to ALLOW the Defender to do their thing; whether it's taking a hyper-buff Paladin Challenge to my Undead mega-ugly, or shifting in the Fighter's line of sight. Defender players LOVE to 'catch' the DM slipping like this, and it can make a very memorable fight for them to get to do their schtick.

 
So many PCs, so little time...
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 01, 2012 - 1:57AM #8
NOCTEBRISA
Date Joined: Apr 29, 2007
Posts: 101
My DM don't leave us to rest every time that we want to (or we need to T_T). If you leave your players a "one day fight" is a problem (i think for a player prespective).
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 02, 2012 - 8:31AM #9
GelatinousOctahedron
Date Joined: Jun 30, 2008
Posts: 5,740
I agree its possible that they had not been through enough encounters that day.   I personally don't think PCs should be allowed the mechanical benefits of an extended rest until they have hit two milestones, with the possible exception of if they have leveled up between encounters.

And in paragon the paladin could have taken Untiring Virtue as well, which might let them save up even more uses if they had been through a few encounters already.  The other issue is that a chaladin is likely not stacking up the punishment or control that many other defenders have so that is a trade off for the endurance they have.  For this solo encounter it sounds like it was an ideal choice since they are good at forcing an enemy to attack them and taking a lot of hits well, but for a lot of other fights a fighter would have been even more annoying.

And if they are boosting wisdom, then they are not boosting strength or con, assuming you don't give them three stats bumps at a time instead of two.  And I don't think its necessarily a bad idea to give out three stat bumps, but you should be aware for a lot of classes they make a trade off when picking a secondary stat so there are consequences when you do this.
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1 year ago  ::  Jan 03, 2012 - 1:12PM #10
nburg
Date Joined: Jul 22, 2008
Posts: 65
Thanks for the feedback guys.

Yeah, I don't think it was a stat issue primarily.  I think it was probably too short of a "work day".  The fight was dangerous, for sure, it just didn't go they way I had hoped.  It was also my fault for giving into the whining of the party.   Some of the dracolich's abilities seemed overpowered to the players and that triggered some serious whining from the party, which I caved into and backed off a bit.

I dictate when they can rest and I'm too generous with them.  I think toughening up on extended rests might be my solution.

As a DM, I try to fight battles with two perspectives, one is strategic but I also try to grant some perspective of the opponents and who they might try to target based on their knowledge, awareness and experience with the party.  I love the defending mechanics of 4E tremendously.  The party is excellent at using these mechanics and other protections & baiting moves to take the heat off of an ally.  I find my players to be incredibly heroic in this edition, not that previous editions aren't heroic but 4E has some gorgeous mechanics to portray it.
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