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1 year ago ::
Dec 19, 2011 - 10:07PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Apr 27, 2006
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Legends and LoreNod to Realismby Monte CookWhen people talk about “realism” in D&D, I always mentally put those quotation marks around the word, because ultimately, D&D isn’t very realistic.Talk about this column here.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 19, 2011 - 10:10PM
#2
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Date Joined:
May 19, 2011
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The acid shark ahd me laughing like crazy.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 19, 2011 - 10:12PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Dec 25, 2009
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I feel like this thread will have many fewer posts and arguments than other recent L&L threads.
It's really hard to disagree with a post that basically says "Different editions of D&D have had different levels of simulationism. Different people like different levels. Please let me know how much you like!"
edit: Though we might be able to argue about last week's poll results! Because unless they got mislabeled or otherwise broken again, I'm not a fan.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 19, 2011 - 10:24PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2002
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Someone get that shark some goggles!
This week's L&L is much much better than the previous ones, if simply because the polls aren't insulting.
Edit: I refrained from even touching last week's polls due to how absurd they were.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 19, 2011 - 10:26PM
#5
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| Too much time spent making everything seem realistic wastes game time. |
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is a statement that is impossible to disagree with [except for those of us who just like disagreeing.] Too much anything waste game time, including too much game time.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 19, 2011 - 10:46PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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DavidArgall:
There's a segment of the gaming community that holds absolute 'realism' (however ill-defined that may be) as the highest priority in gaming, and they'd probably disagree with that statement on principle.
(And you don't have to look very hard to find posts on these forums complaining about how fantasy character X doing Y isn't realistic and how terrible it is that the game system allows it. I suspect that there'll be a fair share of 'disagree' responses from those posters, too.)
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1 year ago ::
Dec 19, 2011 - 11:08PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2010
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I've always thought about realism in PnP RPGs like I think about realism in engineering. If point masses, newtonian laws, and freebody diagrams are enough to get the result I want 99.9% of the time, I don't think there's any reason at all for using distributed masses, high scale quantum mechanics, and einsteinian physics to get the same result except in that .1% corner case - and that .1% corner case can always just be houseruled with much less effort than those rules being published as the "default" for everyone to use all the time. While I'm impressed by things like GURPS taking the time to establish that explosives in confined spaces are more dangerous than those in unconfined spaces, having to do the sorts of calculations they decided are required to model that realistically (rather than "explosives deal double damage if you're in a small room" or something more abstract) slows the game's pace to a total crawl. Congratulations you had a (pretty good) simulation of a bomb going off, too bad it took four hours! Tune in next session for doing the math required to replicate the physics behind starting your car
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1 year ago ::
Dec 19, 2011 - 11:33PM
#8
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Just the fact that this article is about the "nods to realism" pretty much ranks it up there in my short list of favorites. I think the terms used here are more nuanced though, and could stand some clarification.
I view "simulationism" as developing significant amounts of detail and covering a large number of different possible courses of action. The things developed need to be accurate within the "reality" provided by the context. For instance, we could build a very detailed Fighter Jet simulator with non-Earth-realistic atmospherics and gravity. We could also build a not-very detailed simulator within the same context. That level of detail provides the level of simulationism (in that analogy -- it isn't necessarily detail alone).
I view "realism" as providing a set of base rules or assumptions about why things are different from a non-metagaming sense. For instance, length is a concept, and because of it, a polearm might have a farther reach than a short sword. The non-metagaming part is important, as it isn't "realistic" to say, these creatures all have a Level of 4, therefore they should all deal 2d6 damage. Once you've determined how reality works within your context, you appropriately determine how much damage a creature would deal, then determine its level. So, 1) determine reality, 2) determine mechanical effects of that reality, 3) determine metagaming cues from those mechanical effects. The reality can be any context.
Then I have a term I would call "integrity" which would mean that the concepts and rules of the developed "reality" apply in all appropriate cases; they aren't sidestepped for convenience, balance, or any other reason. (When a lot of people criticise a game/movie/book/etc by pulling the "realism card" I often think they more often than not mean this instead. They're really saying that based on the concepts and rules determined or assumed to provide the in-context reality, the effect shown wasn't consistent with that -- most often true when the implied or assumed concept/rule is "Earth-realistic," like: 'no person would be able to jump that high; that's not realistic!' it really should be 'that's not consistent with the in-context reality that was previously implied!').
I've made it fairly clear I personally prefer the simulationist style in general. My other major preference is integrity. Generally speaking, I also typically prefer Earth-like "realism", which also has the tendency to manifest in low-magic or high-contrast (powerful, but exceptionally rare magic) games.
Anyway, I liked this article.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 19, 2011 - 11:54PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Nov 15, 2007
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I think this one was a lot better than his usual stuff.
I'm not much of a fan of "realism" in my D&D games. After all it's a game about wizards, physically present gods, and non existant monsters. None of which are realistic.
"Realism" is usually just an excuse to bash on and limit marshal characters and at the same time let other sources get away with anything.
Because you like something, it does not mean it is good. Because you dislike something, it does not mean it is bad. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it everyone's opinion. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it truth. Because it is your opinion, it does not make it the general consensus.
Whatever side you want to take, at least remember these things.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 20, 2011 - 12:04AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Aug 30, 2010
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There Monte goes again, destroying D&D with his crazy ideas about... ::starts reading article::
Oh, nevermind. Carry on.
Personally, I wasn't a fan of realism in the game, but I was fan of simulationism. I liked that my character could use the same rules and forces that the villain was using. Now, I understand that such an approach can quickly break the game, so I'm not bitter about it having been tossed in 4e. That makes 4e a complete joy to DM for, although there are some things that I miss as a player.
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