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Switch to Forum Live View What if someone is TOO good at [X]
1 year ago  ::  Dec 12, 2011 - 11:41AM #1
Tubaman
Date Joined: Sep 21, 2009
Posts: 626
Alright, if you're playing in my game....

....feel free to keep reading anyways, there aren't any spoilers  

So i'm running a "war" game....think heroes of battle from 3.5....but in a 4e game.

we first meet our 11th level characters as they are the "best of the best" on the currently losing side.  The currently occupy an area roughly the size of alaska on a continent roughly the size of north america.  On a scale of 1-100 with one being "they lose" and 100 being "they win" they are currently around 10.  They all have a wild/primal theme going on and are currently defending a loose coalition of tribes, villages, and minority species against the infringing empire, with various sinister and evil connatations TBA as i think of them or they become appropriate.

Now, i've had my share of issues with ALL of these players in the past, and am currently working to allow all of them to have fun both in and out of combat (a difficult feat for a RADICALLY diverse group of people).  Combat is going well so far (1 session and 3 encounters in), we have the beginnings of a story, some direction, some suitable paragon-level feeling scenarios and things are going well.

i know, i know....what does this have to do with the title?

well i've got two issues that the title covers....the first is in-combat, and the second is in general, both about specific players.

#1 is that i have a player playing a "black-hole knight"....for those unfamiliar, this character slides and knocks prone anything he hits...ever...period.  He has 2 uses per encounter of "come and get it," which allows him to pull any enemy within 3 squares up next to him and attack them.....very accurate and 100% combat advantage means that he will hit roughly 85% of the time, and the defender aura means that monster have a nearly impossible time escaping him (his defenses are also pretty strong, an on-level monster will basically only hit him on 11+, vs. any defense).

Don't think that i'm complaining....i'm not....i've designed my monsters and fights appropriately....i dont want to ice his character TOTALLY out of fights or make him near seless, so the monsters are spread out, but generally not SO far apart that he can never get multiple enemies with his "come and get it."  i've given appropriate monster roles 1/encounter abilities to allow them to fulfill their role (eg. my skirmishers had a 1/encounter minor action to stand up, remove slow, immobilize, daze, and restrain, and ignore (but not end) any marks or defender auras until the end of their current turn.....my controllers had melee powers that pushed, and 1/encounter abilities that let them teleport (similar to fey step))  The problem comes when these measures to keep fights interesting come into contact with some of my other melee players.  if the minions who slow people happen to go first in a spread-out encounter and land a slow effect on everyone, it generally sucks (it happened in one fight....slowing minions went and hit the melee players, then the melee players had their turn before the melee monsters could run up and engage) or if a melee player other than the knight tries to hit an artillery or controller that is on a ledge or raised wall and the NPC pushes them off, it can be extremely frustrating after spending turns getting there.  

I want my combats fun for ALL (me included) - not frustrating....finding a balance to keep the 3 melee, 2 archers in the party involved and all relevant to the fight is, of course, a challenge....i've got a handle on it right now, but i'm very open to any suggestions or tricks to allow me an even better mastery of the encounters.




#2 issue is not totally combat related, and not totally out-of-combat.....one of my players has a passive perception (for creatures) that basically spots anything....she beats out just about every on-level monster i've seen that attempts to hide, even when rolling a 20 stealth.  Now i understand the investment of character resources into perception needing to make a difference, and i have methods to make the game interesting even with the all-seeing-eye in the group.

SO FAR i've had no trouble in combat (though admittedly it was only relevant in one combat encounter) with simply saying you 4 see this guy, and you (the all-seeing-eye) also percieve THIS guy.   The worry here is more personal...the "all-seeing-eye" tends away from the "take charge" type of player in the party, and her immense perception means that as they approach an area, she gets a pretty detailed description and generally has the most information on an upcoming place or event.  The real question, then, is thus:

how do i give the additional information warranted by a super-duper perception score, keep her character at the forefront of disseminating the additional information, but NOT shine the brilliant spotlight of "what are YOU going to do now" in her face every time such information surfaces. 
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 12, 2011 - 12:01PM #2
Barvas
Date Joined: Aug 20, 2007
Posts: 239
#1: Make them fight Dwarves and others with a limited passive resistence for the problem.  Make maps big enough that monsters can maneuver around his 3-square range.  Use terrain to separate the monsters from the fighter.  Send in monsters in waves: if he is locking down monsters, they are also locking him down to a certain extent; send the monsters he is not locking up elsewhere.  Use lurkers to pop in out of nowhere and put pressure on other characters.  Attack from behind.  Don't bring out all your monsters at once.

#2:   In my game, we assume that everything one PC sees is going to be passed along to the others.  If you aren't comfortable with making such assumptions, instead ask a yes or no question (rather than an open-ended one).  For example, "Do you let everyone else know about it?"  That way you can quickly establish whether or not the information is shared, and the more proactive players can take the lead in deciding the action.
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 12, 2011 - 12:05PM #3
iserith
Date Joined: Jun 1, 2005
Posts: 5,202
#1. Alternative (sometimes non-) combat goals and/or victory conditions. Characters who are good at keeping things near them and hitting things until they are dead are all well and good, but you didn't defuse the bomb, so you're screwed. Or better yet, all those widows and orphans are screwed.

#2. I'm not really sure what the problem is here. The players have different levels of information. You can assume (with the player's permission) that she shares whatever information she gets automatically, if it is appropriate to the scene and then everyone can decide on their own what to do. If you're asking every single time whether or not the PC is sharing information, that gets old. I'd ask for a default position from the PC and then move forward on that basis except when the situation calls for that to change.
No amount of tips, tricks, or gimmicks will ever be better than simply talking directly to your fellow players to resolve your issues.
Reduce DM Prep & Increase Player Engagement: Don't Prep the Plot  |  Structure First, Story Last  |  Collaborative Roleplay  |  "Yes, and..."  |  Prep Tips
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 12, 2011 - 3:31PM #4
DevourerOfPancakes
Date Joined: Nov 17, 2011
Posts: 185
You can take the defender out of his comfort zone (and "win" the positioning game) by good use of controller/leader type monsters. With leader types, you can often slide your brutes/soldiers/skirmishers/lurkers away from the Knight, towards softer targets. With controller types, you instead push/pull/slide the defender away from the front line, opening the way for a charge. Or you can throw the occasional daze, which turns off OAs and immediates. Players tend to hate being dazed though (non-paladin defenders more than anyone), so don't make it a standard tactic.

Consider delaying monster turns or readying actions to make optimal use of your positioning efforts. And even without positioning/forced movement powers, you can ready a charge with one monster, then use the readied action during another monster's turn. This provokes, and may well waste the charge, but opens the way for the other monster to just use their move+standard, since OAs are limited to once per turn. Don't overdo this, though (if you ready four charges to go off at once, you're undoing most of the roadblock's good efforts). The trick is to make the players feel good about the OAs you do provoke, but get a few monsters in the squishies' faces to make them feel threatened.

As Barvas mentioned, the use of special terrain can help mix things up. Difficult and blocking terrain can mess with forced movement, while hazardous terrain and traps can add an extra tactical use (which also applies to any forced movement your own monsters have). You can make the battlefield even more dynamic by adding terrain powers.
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 12, 2011 - 3:35PM #5
Wystenv2
Date Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 288
1) Just because your player is winning, doesn't nessiarily mean he can win the war single handedly win the war. 3 squares is a small space for war so while he is holidng his postion against almost unsermountable odds, the foe can unleash flanking attacks or make simlar breakthroughs elsewhere beyond his station, stretching his party across the battlefield and leaving locked in place. Otherwise, pity gigantic, enhanced champions against areas of resistance if any area is fighting so strong to seek him out in personal combat that is very resistant to the prone style, while all this is going on the rest of the party can be fighting all around and what not.


2)   It's one of those things really, if she's designed the character to perceive things with such accuarcy, she will have a great deal of control over the battle field. Perhaps she is even the true leader of the group, but lacks the cha to convay this information in a way that your every day warrior can process. This is something a little harder to answer.
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 12, 2011 - 4:43PM #6
Nelphine
Date Joined: May 30, 2005
Posts: 864
1 I have no inspiration about at this time.

2)  Prepare pieces of paper ahead of time with the extra information on it.  Give the perceptor the piece of paper, with a comment at the end saying 'if you want to do anything with this extra info, let me know'.   Purposefully give her some that have nothing useful so that when the rest of the party says 'whats it say whats it say' she can legitamitely say 'not much'.  This way she has the information, but she only has to do things with it when she wants; and if she wants to wait until its her normal turn, then she can wait till then; or she can take the spotlight at the start.  Whatever suits her.
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 12, 2011 - 6:46PM #7
Droma
Date Joined: Jan 8, 2007
Posts: 215
I'm the knight in the party btw. Here is a link to my build.

@Tubaman
I liked all the fights we've had so far. They've given me a chance to shine without really screwing me over. Even the slowing minions while annoying didn't keep me from doing some cool stuff at the end of the fight when I finally did get to the back line. The 3rd fight was only annoying because our slayer and warlord decided to pick the absolute worst spots to be in preventing me from moving the enemies out of the way for several rounds.

So far I'm pretty happy and most of the suggestions in this thread are probably stuff you should use. Just running melee guys in my direction will be bad, as long as there are some ranged or guys that are more than 10 squares apart it takes me a bit to move around and deal with them.

As for our crazy perception person I think it's best if we just ask her if we should assume she tells everyone in the party about it(if she's scouting using her bird or w/e). This way me or someone else can come up with the plans using that information. Right now I've kind of made myself the defacto party leader because of my characters age/experience and not rushing headlong into a fight, I'm leaving in combat leadership/inspiration to the warlord.

@everyone
We had 3 fights so far. The first one was up on a ridge where there was a long line of spread out archer minions commanded by an elite archer, a wizard and two halfling scouts. They had set up an ambush for our supply caravan moving through the valley below and we had to prevent them from getting a certain number of shots off to "win" the battle. I basically won the battle soundly for our side because our warlord let me shift my speed on his turn which then let me move and suck in 4 minions with come in get it, letting me kill all 4. Round two I moved and charged one of the skirmishers that our slayer slid my way then action pointed and sucked in another 4 minions and killing them leaving a total of 4 minions archers left in the fight. At that point it was basically clean up.

The second fight was assaulting a small recently constructed hill fort that the enemy was using to launch raids from. They had two standard controllers(wizards) and a bunch of melee and archer minions. The melee ones marked and the archers slowed you until the end of your next turn if they hit. Well we charged in the front and the 3 melee characters we had got pummeled with arrows and were slowed and forced to hack our way through a wall of marking melee minions. Our two ranged characters spent a few rounds taking out the archers and then we rushed across the open ground up onto the walls of the fort and took out the two standards who'd been launching bursts of lightning at us for several rounds.

The third fight was the hardest. It was in a stone tower and had two brutes, two controllers, and one elite controller. The tower was three levels high and had two sets of stairs on opposite sides leading up to the second level, the second level had two sets of stairs going to the third. On the bottom floor guarding the stairs were the two brutes, on the second level were the two controllers, and on the third level was the elite controller. Our warlord and slayer each go before me and decided it'd be a smart idea to stand in front of the brutes effectively preventing me from sliding them out of the way. So we have to hack our way through the brutes while all the controllers get free shots on us. Our slayer gets through first and tries to run by the two controllers but they have an opportunity attack that lets them push one square and daze but doesn't deal damage. Well our slayer gets hit and ends up getting shoved off the second floor falling three squares and because he's now dazed can't prevent the fall damage so takes 3d10 and falls prone. I then make it up to the second floor and use come and get it to slide both controllers off the edge and action point to move the elite controller into my defender aura. Two turns later I position him with come and get it and slide him off too and then we proceed to finish him off. Fight was around 9 rounds long.

Edit: spelling and gramar
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 12, 2011 - 8:14PM #8
Ventus_Frago
Date Joined: Jun 26, 2007
Posts: 245
#1 use environments. Difficult terrain, rubble, multiple entrance points of the monsters, phased entrance of the monsters. But seriously let him do the black hole. It's the point of his character. I see a brute or two eating on him every fight. Don't build counters for his toon until there are key encounters that are supposed to be dramatic.

#2 you can always say as DM that the trap/creature/plot device isn't visible/perceivable until a certain point in combat. But for the most part play as if she will see everything , it validates her character choices and makes her contributions as important out of combat.

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1 year ago  ::  Dec 12, 2011 - 11:45PM #9
Aetharion
Date Joined: Sep 22, 2009
Posts: 198
#1 The previous replies of dwarves and terrain sound like good ideas, but you could also try putting them against an enemy that dominates - the level 12 solo Deathbringer Dracolich, for example - since the party will now be facing their own "black hole," which synergizes well with a Breath Weapon. Just for a while, at least.

#2 One does not need to be a leader in order to convey information to fellow players. This sounds more like a scout than anything else, and simply asking "What do you do with this information?" doesn't neccesarily put the spotlight on them. You could try putting them in a silent environment, where the All-Seeing Eye can't communicate what they're seeing/hearing to the rest of the group, if you want the player to worry about traps and so on.
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1 year ago  ::  Dec 13, 2011 - 12:17AM #10
Enlightened1
Date Joined: Jun 17, 2007
Posts: 784
Just couple quickies...
-- multiple-wave encounters. Standard or light encounter to start, then another wave of baddies show up fresh as daisies a couple rounds later, probably from a different direction
-- high-mobility enemies; cavalry and/or flyers doing driveby whacks  
-- a +1 for alternative goals. The 'stop the ambush' scene was very nice idea (consider it stolen!); for one sequence I saddled the PCs with a bunch of civilians they had to escort to safety, fighting off a couple attacks on the way. 
-- huge numbers of bad guys. With a mission goal in mind, you can funnel lots and lots of minions and less-powerful bad guys, and it's up to the players to figure it out, becuase just killing ain't gonna do it. The time I did this, the mission was to paddle halfway across the river and plant the bomb to blow the bridge; all the time more boatloads of bad guys were launched to intercept them.
-- speaking of which, fighting on boats/ships makes for some interesting alternate terrain 
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