Alright, here's my attempt at making kuo-toa a playable race option for pcs. I tried to keep it balanced and open to as many class options as possible to encourage variety. My choices in the class features and feats were based on the monster manuals for both 4e and 3.5 that contained kuo-toa. I also introduced a "new" god from the older editions that went along with the kuo-toa. This is definitely PEACH, since even though I tried to balance it, that doesn't mean I really know what I'm doing.
Ability Scores: +2 DEX; +2 CON or +2 WIS
Languages: Common, Deep Speech
Kuo-Toa Mancatcher Training
Kuo-Toa Whip Training
Kuo-Toa Moniter Training
Lurker In The Deep
Oak-Jaw Coven Training
Grasping Claws (druid): You can grab the target of this attack until the end of your next turn if you hit with it.
Haunting Spirits (shaman): You can grab the target of this attack until the end of your next turn if you hit with it.
Thorn Strike (warden): You can grab the target of this attack until the end of your next turn if you hit with it.
Howling Strike (barbarian): If you are grabbed, you can charge with this attack to escape the grab. You do not provoke opportunity attacks from the creature grabbing you from movement made as part of this charge.
Blibdoolpoolp's Eye [Divinity]
Curse of the Deep One
Racial Power Enhancer
Racial Power Enhancer II
Kuo-Toa Leviathan Path Features
Kuo-Toa Leviathan Powers
Thrashing Rampage Level 12 Utility
Blibdoolpoolp's Blessing Level 20 Daily
Blibdoolpoolp is the patron goddess of the kuo-toa, who refer to her as the Sea Mother. Mad cultists among the other races are known to pledge alliegence to her goals of spreading madness and seeking vengeance upon the other gods as well. However, the worship of Blibdoolpoolp is in decline, as the kuo-toa who once singularily worshipped her are now prone to worship aberrant terrors of the deep instead, or in some secluded tribes, primal spirirts. Blibdoolpoolp's sacred animal is the lobster, and her idols are often lobsters made from jewelry, most often aquamarines and gold. The kuo-toa represent Blibdoolpoolp as a bloated caricature of the female human form, with the claws and head of a lobster. During the Dawn War, Blibdoolpoolp's vanity caused her to try and defect to the primordials. She assumed that she would quickly become the leader of their entire army. Instead, the primordials rejected her and destroyed her domain within the Astral Sea. Knowing of her treachery, the other gods banished Blibdoolpoolp to an aquatic prison within the elemental chaos. Eventually Blibdoolpoolp managed to spread her influence into the natural world, in the deepest waters of the underdark. There, the ancient kuo-toa became her first followers.
Blibdoolpoolp's teachings are as follows:
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Alright, so first I'll preface with nice for doing aquatic races. Totally ignored in the normal D&D. Also, I wont be reviewing any of the feats or anything else. No offense, I just don't generally bother with any homebrew race.
Okay, that being said the racial traits aren't bad. I mean kinda typical, aquatic is a given. Though I don't know the aquatic keyword off the top of my head but I think it includes being able to breathe underwater. So you can probably just change it to saying you gain the aquatic keyword. But the way you have it really isn't bad or anything.
Well I would say that CC would probably jump on you for weapon proficiency but I haven't seem him around...so I'll kinda do it because it something we rarely agree on. Weapon proficiencies as racial traits are...kinda ugly. I mean I get where you're coming from with it because of the pictures in the books always show them with tridents, spears, and nets. But in reality not every kuo-toa is probably proficient in all those. Some probably don't even learn how to use weapons. You gotta think about them in a more general sense here when making a race. Especially when doing it from something that's already a monster.
I'm not saying it's the worse thing in the world. Just saying that it's not the greatest option. The Kuo-toa that would use those kinda weapons probably already have proficiency. Except maybe nets. But spears and trident proficiency isn't that hard to get for those that will actually use them. And if they don't have proficiency with such weapons more often than not they wont be using them because they wont BE useful. Like a sorcerer, he really wouldn't have any use for a trident aside from just the flavor of carrying one around. And also the classes that already get the proficiency with these weapons would then find the racial feature useless, not all that fun though of course not all race/class combos result in taking advantage of all racial features.
Okay, Slimy skin. Okay, like the +2 to escape from grabs, and the Imm Int isn't a bad thing I don't think. As for the resistances, first off there is no electric keyword. There's lightning though, just wanted to point that out. Also...honestly the resistance part really is kind of its own racial feature, doesn't exactly fit with the slimy skin feature of getting out of grabs easier. I mean the resistance is fine, but what I would do is remove the weapon proficiency feature and replace it with something like "Aquatic Resistance: You gain resistance to poison and lightning damage equal to half your level + 5."
I think that would work better. So, the racial feature. Alright, so first an at will. I mean yeah some races have them but usually they're things like the Changeling's shape shifting. I don't know, even with it being an at will, I don't think it's exactly overpowered. I mean yeah it does allow you to shift to ANY square adjacent to the creature you're adjacent to, but I'm sure it could be exploited. I mean it would make it easier to get CA by flanking, or move to a spot that would allow for an easier getaway from the monster. I guess it's not bad, it works.
Oh wow a well thought out awesome reply! Yessss!
To start off, yes I could probably clean up the aquatic part a bit. S'pose I'll get to that.
Weapon proficiency... I do see your point. I guess I just liked the idea of it, but now that I think about it all your points make perfect sense. Especially since a kuo-toa monk is totally a thing, and they don't use tridents or something as implements.
Ahaha my bad with electric insteada lightning. I'm too used to the pokeymans I guess, will change it to lightning. Will also split it from Slimy Skin.
It seems your not too hot about the racial power, but for now I'll keep it because it was their "racial thing" in the monster manual, and because I think it's pretty cool that it can be used offensively OR defensively.
Thank's a bunch Alitain, especially since you dont bother with homebrew races ahahaha
Posting this right away, change the at-will power to the following:
Effect: You pick an adjacent enemy and move up to your speed. As long as you end this movement in a square adjacent to that enemy, your movement does not provoke opportunity attacks from that enemy.
This is a level 2 fighter power, so this is official phrasing. Always try to make things sound as official as possable
Aberrant Familiarity: make it a +2 bonus to damage rolls.
Whip Training: "grabs caused by your zadtl", what does that mean?
I was hoping to see the sticky shield in there somehwere :D
I only do heroic tier, so I'm not gonna comment on stuff past that.
This is very well done, very flavourful :D and I love how original some of these things are :D
I've noticed in my own homebrewing is that I've started to fall into a template, but you, good sir, have no such template and it is beautiful to look at :D
Hope you get a lot of constructive comments on this thing, you really did well.
If these are all evil creatures, how can I fit a kua-toa character into my dnd group, if I were to play one?
mhbjarkister: Wow, thank you very much for your constructive (and complementive :3) comments!
Slick Manuever: Eh... I suppose I could make the wording more "official", but I'd still want to keep the movement a shift. This does end up making it not as powerful in the end, since some monster can OA on shifts, but I'd like to keep the ability somewhat true to the 4e monster manual's "kuo-toa generic power". But I will think about changing the wording to something more like yours.
Aberrant Familiarity: I figured +4 was alright, since a feat (Headman's chop) adds +5 untyped damage bonus to prone enemies, which can very easily and reliably set up. This feat gives you the bonus only against certain monster types, which cannot be set up or changed, AND also gives a slight penalty so it's more of a trade off. HOWEVER, if this feat continues to be a problem I will definitely consider changing it more.
Whip Training: The zadatl (AKA pincerstaff, an iconic kuo-toa cleric's weapon), was released in dragon 391, along with a set of novice/expert/specialist feats that let you grab with it. This makes that path a bit more viable, since a SUPERIOR weapon ought to be more than +2 prof 1d8 when it uses both of your hands.
Alright, that's a good question about the kuo-toa being evil thing! One of my planned characters is a kuo-toa, and he was a "simple fisherman". When his villiage was overcome with madness, everyone was effected by it, even him. All he remembers is waking up surrounded by several dead kuo-toa. He may not have been the only survivor, but he was the only one he could find. This event caused him to take the holy symbol used as a religious idle in his town (being a layperson, he didn't actually know anything about WHAT it was he was worshipping), and set off looking for answers. Despite having evil tendencies, this character is more interested in adventuring looking for divine secrets to find out why that happened to his home-town.
But, that of course isn't the only option! It is very possible (I even put it as a fact in the spiel about Blibdoolpoolp) that there are a few secluded kuo-toa tribes who have instead begun to worship primal spirits, and who would probably be unaligned or neutral due to the influence.
Even then, one of Blibdoolpoolp's teachings I added was "Be opportunistic. Forge alliences that will benefit you and only break them once they become disadvantageous." This encourages players to avoid the Stupid Evil alignment, and instead realize that even if they are evil, they can effectively work as a team. Killing off your adventuring party is a GREAT way to get yourself killed in the next encounter, so a kuo-toa would realize that. Thus, you could still be a evil kuo-toa star pact warlock or something, but go along with your traveling companions for protection (and maybe even a sort of fish-y friendship later).
Thank you, again, for the comments!
Hope I didn't ramble too much with that last question...
I'm not sold on your selection of ability scores. But, what my imagination perceives Kuo-Toa to be like is likely different from yours. You might very well be using monsters stats of 4th ed or another edition as your basis. Dunno. In my mind, giving them a +2 Dex implies that they are more agile than land creatures on land. Just a thought.
Slimy Skin: Sure, thematically a bonus to escape grabs is nice, and is a small enough bonus that doesn't throw much off. I appreciate the combination of fluff and crunch. Take into account that with the immediate interupt you're essentially giving this race TWO At-Will powers. I think that, combined with TWO restistances is going too far.
I completely agree with mhbjarkistef's wording for slick maneuver. Your wording gives them the ability to shift past ALL enemies they are near. mhbjarkistef's wording - the Pass Forward wording - gives them the ability to bypass oportunity attacks of only the enemy they are facing. A free Pass Forward is already a hefty boon. And this also ties into my previous point that you want Kuo-Toa to be more maneuverable than land creatures. Sorry to go on about that, it just doesn't fit my perception of them.
You could change the prereq of the Lurker in the Deep feat to make it available to all Aquatic creatures, even though this might be the only one.
As for Aberrant Familiarity, it seems weird to me to buy a penalty.
Abberant Madness seems way overpowered to me.
Excellent, feedback! Thanks ciaran!
Aberrant Madness: There is a penalty in there as well, did you notice? However, even then I do think I should change it to only one target of the daily attack. Also, since there is no movement to go with the basic attack, it somewhat limits the chances it will go off.
Aberrant Familiarity: The penalty is to offset the sizable bonus of a free +5 against a certain type of enemy that isn't exactly rare. Especially since the penalty isn't all the time, and only occurs against the same enemies you get a bonus to. Do you mind explaning in more detail why it isn't worth it? I am open to changing it.
Lurker in the Deep: Unlike deft swimmer, I do intend this to be kuo-toa only.
(There is a half elf feat that makes you aquatic, and I intend to post a homebrew sahuagin race soon, so... at least that's a couple more? xD )
Slick Manuever: Well, with TWO people bringing it up, then I will change slick manuever. However, I would like to note that it does take up your move action, so it's not like it's infinite movement, and it would be great for getting outta flanks... Hm... Awh man this is killing me. I'll see what I can do about this ability.
Slimy and Rubbery Skins: I will remove the poison resistance. That was mostly there because I think they were immune to poisons or something in 3.5. I like the lightning resistance thematically more though.
I do imagine Kuo-Toa as being dex primary, so I suppose I'll agree with you that this is just different perceptions of the race. I probably wont change the ability scores, but outta curiosity, what ability scores do you think they should have?
Once again, thank you very much for the comments!
(also about that comment in the warmage thread, sorry that I took your comment as an accusation. That's just what it seemed like to me. I've been wrong before though ahahaha)
finally figured out how to do that ahahaha
Anyways, does anyone have any comments on the Black Pirahna Tribe feat or the stuff past heroic tier?
Ability scores bonuses... Tough one. I've perused some different artwork I could find. Some make them look like fish, some more reptilian. Contemplating them, I believe that of the mental stats, you could go with Cha (if you want them more primative and fierce) or Int (if you want them to have colder, calculating personalities. E.G.G. did), but the compassion or worldliness that may accompany Wis is something I don't see in their eyes. Their underdark neighbors/rivals, Illithid and Drow, are both intelligent. I prefer Int.
I could see Dex as a secondary. Many fish and reptiles have very fast reflexes, but the artwork - to me - makes them appear sedentary. Con could represent that.
Final decision is Con primary, with Dex or Int secondary (since they both fuel Reflex.)
Abberant Familiarity: I suppose what you have isn't wrong, I just can't see someone purchasing a save penalty, and can't think of a feat it has been used in before.
Kudos on the write-up of Blibdoolpoolp.
Actually drow get dexterity and then wisdom or charisma
Yeah but drow should have intelligence so good point :T
The reason I didn't go with intelligence is because even though I see kuo-toa as being able to be cunning, their overall simplistic-ness and general state of chaotic-y-ness makes it seem to me like they wouldn't be the brightest bunch.
But yeah, the reason I chose dexterity primary was because I see kuo-toa as being very sneaky and quick. Even on land, their slimy skin (and slick manuever) keeps them as having high mobility and reflexes. And the look in their eyes always gave them sort of a shifty look to me.
With wisdom, that is definitely, a good point. However, the wisdom OR constitution is why I was okay with doing it. The kuo-toa that would have defected to primal spirits, and the whips and moniters, both have good wisdom scores representing their high will defense. I see wisdom as being mental "constitution", so they trade the hardiness that the "common" kuo-toa have for their better mental stability.
I do like that your way of doing it would make them better conlocks, but besides that it's also worth noting that I don't see kuo-toa as excelling at any arcane classes besides the conlock. Rogues, Fighters, Monks, Avengers, Clerics, and Warlocks are all classes they would be at least decent at with this set-up, which fits very well in my mind. When making a race, I find it very important to also envision what sort of classes they will be good at.
So, that was my justification for the stats I gave it, but I can't really argue with yours either as the points you make are definitely valid.
And thanks, I was pretty proud of what I whipped up for Blibdoolpoolp.
What is the general consensus of what non-implement or weapon attacks should get as attack modifiers? The kuo-toa paragon path has two of these sort of attacks, and I want to make sure they scale alright.
Alright, made it scale right.
But, still... there isn't anything anyone has to say about the stuff past heroic tier?
Changed their vision to low-light vision.
So... no more comments on the race? (also nothing on the stuff past heroic?)
Oh well. If this doesn't see any more attention I suppose I should move on and post the sahuagin.
Sorry. I wrote abut 20 lines earlier this week and lost it.
oh wow, I absolutely hate it when that happens
I'd be happy with the abridged version and just pretending it was more wordy and awesome, but I'd understand losing it killing any motivation to try and redo an entire post
Just a few thoughts.
Blibdoolpoolp's Eye seems overpowered to me. Take a look at the existing ones. Plenty of monsters have rediculously strong "basic" melee attacks.
Keen Eyes needs to be rewritten. Its hard to understand. What is a +2 to darkvision? How about "You can see invisible creatures within 3 squares of you."
Kuo-Toa Harpooner: pull 3 seems like a lot. 1 is probably fine.
Effortless Maneuver: a minor action would suffice.
Looks a lot better than when I originally saw it, but there are still problems...
I love the escape feature! I have been mulched on, and I can tell you it's not nice! If only I were so slippery no one could get a hold of me!
Mmm, I love the smell of critique in the afternoon.
Thanks all who posted !
Blibdoolpoolp's Eye: Right, monsters have some wonky basic stuff they can do... I think I'll change it to affecting only one target.
Keen Eye: Will do.
Kuo-Toa Harpooner: Let's compromise. Pull 2 squares.
Effortless Maneuver: I think, unless this gets more attention, I'll keep it a free action. It is an Epic feat, and I find the idea of a kuo-toa chess-ing around the battlefield hilarious. Also, there is the whole "DMs can limit free actions" thing if in a specific campaign it gets too outta hand. However, since I made a paragon feat that makes Slick Manuever not get OAs at all, I do think I'll get rid of the bonus to defenses against OAs that aren't the specific guy you're sliding around.
Slimy Skin: I'm still not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. Should I make it less powerful, such as only having the bonus or only having it as an interrupt?
Slick Maneuver: Unfortunately, I think I just flat out disagree with you on this one. Kobolds do not have an encounter power, and it is amazing. Shifty is a ridiculously powerful racial feature, and that's an at-will. Movement abilities, in my opinion, are great for races, as long as they can apply to melee and ranged. Slick maneuver does just that in that it can help squishy casters flee, and melee dudes position themselves better. It is also the 4e "unifying feature" of kuo-toa, similar to goblin tactics and shifty, and shifty was made into the kobold's power. I will still consider changing it to an encounter power, but as it stands right now I haven't been too convinced to change slick maneuver.
Once again, thank you all for replying and helping!
Is thread necro fine with your own thread? (...welllet'sfindout)
I changed the racial features around quite a bit, giving in to the fact that an at-will power is basically something that could easily be fit into the stat block. However, that does mean I need to make a new encounter power.
Besides that, I updated several feats.
Crimson, if you are still around and see this, out of curiosity, what did you think of the goblin? Mostly I'm curious about it getting to keep it's "shifty" (it's not broken like shifty, but is an at-will thing)
Post Your Reply
Please login to post a reply.