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1 year ago ::
Dec 09, 2011 - 6:03AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2010
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Over on the What's A Player To Do forum, there's an interesting discussion going on about the fun vs the burden of DMing. Some posters, along with WotC, subscribe to the idea that DMs have the most fun, but not everyone agrees. In fact, it's suggested that, for the majority of DMs, the workload that comes with DMing is too high for the pay-off. If this doesn't change, there is a risk of communities running out of motivated DMs. So, this raises two questions for me.
- Do people who DM regularly think DMing is more fun than playing, and why (not)?
- How can you increase incentive to DM, in home games as well as organized play?
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1 year ago ::
Dec 09, 2011 - 7:03AM
#2
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- DMing is more fun than playing. I just enjoy it more. Can't say for sure why, but it probably has to do with the fact that I've been mostly DMing for about 32 years. It seems more of a burden when my players are a burden rather than a help.
- Actively recruit and retain good, motivated players who don't cause more problems than they solve, and dump the bad. Not sure how to increase incentive for organized play, but I don't do that so I don't really care about it.
Kalex the Omen Dungeonmaster Extraordinaire Concerning Player Rules Bias
Show
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 09, 2011 - 7:56AM
#3
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1. I enjoy both DMing and playing and I tend to suffer from a little bit of "grass is greener" syndrome. If I DM for a long time, I start thinking about all these cool characters that I would like to be playing. If I am a player for a long time, then I start thinking of all these cool adventures that I would like to be running.
2. In my local gaming group, I feel like we are blessed with some fairly mature gamers. We tend to operate on the "do unto others" principle - if you like other people running games for you, then sometimes take your turn and run games for them. Not everyone wants to run a long, complex campaign but if the less enthusiastic DMs are willing to run a published LFR mod on the one week when the usual DM is travelling or sick then I think that builds a lot of good will. And it helps people get their toe in the water, and realize that DMing isn't really THAT hard.
We were going to try to formalize this system at our local gaming store, keeping track of how many mods each person had run and played in. If it ever came up that there were a limited number of seats at a table, priority would be given to the people who had a better run to play ratio. In practice, it hasn't really been a problem since it's usually the same guys from Monday nights who show up and play at the game store and they are all pretty willing to take turns.
I heard that they are making a new video game, where you control the Netherese flying citadel of Sakkors, raining death on your helpless enemies below. Working title: Mythal Command.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 09, 2011 - 8:07AM
#4
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I don't believe that DMing is more fun than playing. But I also don't believe that playing is more fun than DMing. They're different kinds of fun, and that difference is what makes both enjoyable in my eye. As a DM, I can create a wonderful worlds that my players and their characters can rise above to become heroes that the people of those worlds will remember forever. As a player, I can become one of those heroes myself. Each process has its own merits, and I don't think I could choose one over the other as more fun or a better experience.
That being said, I DM more than I play, so I would like the chance to play more. Doing so would require increasing incentive for other players to try the role of the DM.
To increase DM incentive, I think you don't always need to have someone with a great imagination, but more someone with a fair imagination, and a desire to use it for anothers benefit. As a player, your mindset is largely selfish. You want to become a hero (or villain in such cases), and killing monsters, saving towns and defeating evil masterminds is one way of doing so. Players work for themselves towards that angle, even if they work as a team to obtain it. DMs, however, work not only for themselves, but the players as well. A good DM doesn't send his players into the jaws of death and lets death have its way with them. He challenges them to overcome death, providing a 50% chance of victory or defeat in the worst case scenarios. Most DMs see their position as the opponents of the players rather than the storyteller and rules arbitrator. It causes them to have the same mentality as a player with more than just one character to play. They want to win rather than help the PCs make their characters grow and expand their stories.
An episode of Dexter's Lab in which Dexter and DeeDee both take turns running a tabletop game for Dexter's friends, both with varying results, is a good example of Good DMing and Bad DMing. Even if DeeDee's game was childish in comparison, she made it a better experience for her players than Dexter did. A good DM does not write a good story. A good DM helps the players to write a good story. At its heart, DMing is like being an editor for a magazine, and the players writers who send their works into to be published. You can't always publish everything they send in, but you also want to see them succeed, because their success is the same as your success. Furthering this type of DM mindset is step one in getting more players to try DMing as well.
Step two, I would say, is to eliminate the fear that a DMs work has to be perfect/epic in its nature. Many of the best DMing tricks involve little more than proper pacing and eliminating needless details, but many people think that DMs have to put in a mountain of work to run these great adventurers. Sure, a DM does put in a lot of effort, but they don't ever truly achieve perfection in their preparations. One of the most common stories you will here from DMs is when they set up these grand ideas of challenges and trials for PCs to overcome, and then a clever player finds a way to bypass it all and win the day. All that hard work down the drain. To this, not only must we teach new DMs to not plot everything out so much with such detail, but to go with the flow of the story more, and use that flow as the guideline for setting up the next challenge the PCs should face. Instilling this in practicing DMs would also help to further their own works and goals, making DMing a much more rewarding venture for all people concerned.
Of course, it's not something that's for everyone. One of my players knows he can't be a DM because he would either be too hard or too soft on his players. But I'm sure there are many players out there that would like to DM their own games one day. It's all a matter of helping them to keep it simple and make it great fun for everyone, not just themselves.
Just my 2cp on the issue.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 09, 2011 - 8:15AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2010
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Might as well answer the questions myself too.
- I've DM'ed a lot this last year. I usually suffer from a small burnout when I have a great idea for an overarcing campaign story, but not for all the single adventures. And at the same time, publication of player resources doesn't stop, so the character ideas start to pile up. So basically, I think DMing is fun for a few sessions, and after that someone else can take over the reins while I play one or more new characters.
- I think Wizards should offer the DM more options for constructing interesting combat encounters. The reason combat in 4E is so interesting IMO , is because there are so many great options out there to build that one really cool character. But with monsters, I don't experience the same thrill as a DM when I put together an encounter. It's basically pick and choose monsters that seem appropriate for the setting, and throw them against the players. If I really sit down to construct a cool and challenging encounter, not only does this take way too much time, if I go all-out I'm afraid I'll kill my players! So Wizards, not more story & locations, but focus on tools for encounter building!
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1 year ago ::
Dec 09, 2011 - 8:29AM
#6
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1. I like DMing slightly more than playing. The strong interest I have in playing may be attributed to the fact that I am only rarely permitted the opportunity to play as I'm pushed to be the DM most of the time. But if I had to compare, I'd definitely say I like DMing more than playing. I'm sure that's simply related to my gaming experience (DMing since 1991) and my nature. I like to create, design, and manage things. DMing has all three. Plus I'm fairly good at reading people and interpersonal communications as this is my trade.
2. 4e made some good strides on cutting down the DMing workload. I can remember spending days on just NPC/monster stat blocks in 3.X. Now I can bang out an encounter quickly and spend the time saved on layering it with cool effects and story elements so that I'm telling a story with the encounter, not punctuating the story with it. I can see the barrier is still there, however, since I have to twist arms to get my players to run games. I asked them why that is and much of it is related to the workload, even if it's just a mod. I personally find that to be laziness, but I can see where that perception comes from.
A lot of people would rather just show up to play than spend time "backstage" preparing all the material. I suppose if WotC spent some time coming up with really compelling stories and encounters in their published adventures/campaigns, it would be more of a draw for DMs to want to run them. Most of the time when my players get their hands on a published adventure, they want to tear it apart and change it because it falls so flat. This increases their workload and thus creates a barrier to DMing. If I were WotC, I'd spend my time and energy on creating published mods that are so damn good, people will be clamoring to run and play in them. As a DM, I don't need another product to give me a power that pushes 1 and knocks prone but with pixies involved. I'd much rather have a sweet adventure with an awesome, nonlinear story and dynamic encounters. That would certainly encourage the players I know to DM more often. (And every adventure should link to several other published mods in some way so that once you've completed one, you just HAVE to run another to see what else happens...)
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1 year ago ::
Dec 09, 2011 - 8:36AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jul 11, 2011
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Just finished reading the original thread and I think it just comes down to personality types.
I ran the same campaign with several different player groups over eight years or so. In my experience most people do not like to DM. I ended up the DM at a young age and have only been able to play one or two characters in the last ten years (I also took a big break in 08 until now).
The people I've played with like the idea of DM'ing, but like the idea of a character with a story better. They like being the Sherlock Holmes, Wolverine, or D'Artagnan in a story. When I used to go to conventions (here in CA) many of the games would have full player groups but then get cancelled for lack of DMs (I'm looking at you LFR).
Being a DM typically involves a heavy workload and that is often equated with less fun. A player can show up with the minimal required effort and still have a good time. If a DM shows up with minimal effort its more of a crapshoot.
I feel as an old DM of D&D/HERO/GURPS/ETC that 4ED has created a larger rift between players and the DM. I like aspects of 4th, but I also feel that some of the material and phrasing is geared towards coddling the player. I'm back in the gaming world and only been running 4th for a few months, but I can't shake that feeling. Perhaps it will change.
Just my opinion.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 09, 2011 - 8:39AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Oct 24, 2001
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For me:
Do people who DM regularly think DMing is more fun than playing, and why (not)?
I enjoy both. But my enjoyment as a player depends a lot on the DM I have. I need a DM who is at least as good as I am for me to enjoy the game. (I know I am a good DM because I have 33-years of player feedback telling me so.) They don't have to do things exactly the way I would, but they have to be as confident and clear in why they do things the things they do. I enjoy life as a player when I don't find myself wanting to step into the DM hat in the middle of each session. I have found only a handful of DMs in my life who provide that level of play. (There are also a number of DMs on these Boards in whose games I would love to be a player.)
How can you increase incentive to DM, in home games as well as organized play?
I don't even try to increase the incentive for others to DM. For me, it is one of those things that must be found, not given. At best, I simply encourage any player who offers me "non-player feedback" to give it a try.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion: - Three Basic Rules (p 11)
- Power Types and Usage (p 54)
- Skills (p178-179)
- Feats (p 192)
- Rest and Recovery (p 263)
- All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 09, 2011 - 9:42AM
#9
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Date Joined:
May 13, 2009
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DMs have a workload burden? I just do everything on the fly, never noticed any workload issues  That said I like both playing and DMing, preferably either both at the same time (with 2 groups, or 2 alternating campaigns) or one after the other (if there's only one group, alternating DMs between adventures)
Epic Dungeon Master Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen! Your Kingdom awaits!Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 09, 2011 - 9:55AM
#10
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I suppose if WotC spent some time coming up with really compelling stories and encounters in their published adventures/campaigns, it would be more of a draw for DMs to want to run them. [...] If I were WotC, I'd spend my time and energy on creating published mods that are so damn good, people will be clamoring to run and play in them. [...] (And every adventure should link to several other published mods in some way so that once you've completed one, you just HAVE to run another to see what else happens...)
This!
More modules like Reavers of Harkenwold!
Rich Baker and Bruce Cordell should be almost exclusively developing adventure publications. It is no mistake that they keep showing up on best adventure module lists. I'm not sure how Paizo can publish adventure path after adventure path and seemingly make money at it when WotC always complains that they don't make money on products designed for one sixth of the D&D market. If the adventures were of consistently good or better quality and included things like NPC portraits, detailed backgrounds and settings, and notes on how to run them I would shell out subscription money just like Pathfinder Adventure Path customers do. As it is I just buy them and raid the PDFs for art, maps and ideas that I can use.
It's time for WotC to show some lovin' for the DMs and not just the players.
Kalex the Omen Dungeonmaster ExtraordinaireConcerning Player Rules Bias
Show
Gaining victory through rules bias is a hollow victory and they know it.
The argument goes, that some idiot at the table might claim that because there is a "default" that is the only true way to play D&D. An idiotic misconception that should be quite easy to disprove just by reading the rules, coming to these forums, or sending a quick note off to Customer Support and sharing the inevitable response with the group. BTW, I'm not just talking about Next when I say this. Of course, D&D has always been this way since at least the late 70's when I began playing.
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