anyway didnt anybody ever consider that the reason that Eilistraee has female priests only, is becuase that the female drow are the ones that need the lesson most??
anyway I never saw that Eilistraee couldnt have male priests, but only the sword dancers had to be female.
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
I disagree. You like Eilistraee, and I don't. I don't think the "mother of the drow" thing cuts it. If mommy likes your sister better then you, or implies that your sister is better then you, or more worthy then you...then she's a crappy mother. Just like Eilistraee is a crappy goddess
Well, that is obvious at this point.
But again Eilistraee doesn't think males have less value than females. She thinks that they are better suited for different tasks (the example I made before). Oh, btw, read DIFFERENT, not lesser tasks. The mother goddess flavor was to explain from a metagaming point of view why she has only female priestesses.
And no, you may not like her, but Eilistraee is not a crappy goddess. I'm curious about what you'd think of her if she returned with non gender selective priesthood.
anyway didnt anybody ever consider that the reason that Eilistraee has female priests only, is becuase that the female drow are the ones that need the lesson most??
anyway I never saw that Eilistraee couldnt have male priests, but only the sword dancers had to be female.
Eh, poor spiders. I'd rather spray Lolth with some Raid.
I wonder if the sourcebook content isn't more of a bone thrown out to players who want to play male followers of Eilistraee, while the novels fit more of non-gaming, story-based view of the goddess?
Regardless, great thread. I've enjoyed reading through the responses.
The 2e sourcebook is specifically what forbids males from being priests. There's no bone at all, other then a goddess tailor made for people who want to play good drow. I'd imagine the reason it was done that was is so that it wasn't such a radical departure from everything that previously existed for drow/their society. In 2e since nobody wanted to be the cleric anyways, it probably wasn't a big deal.
Even back in 1996 when I bought my Drow of the Underdark sourcebook (because I loved all things drow...you'll never know how crushed I was when I found out about Drizzt and realized that my dark elf ranger was /far/ from a unique idea) I thought it was crap. I still think it's crap.
In fact, the very same sourcebook, specifically allows males to be priests of Lolth of up to 7th level (technically it says she rarely allows them to advace past 7th level...so it can happen).
For the record, Vhaerhun is just as bad as his sister, he doesn't allow females to be priests other. Since he's evil though, I never really noticed it, much like it's not a problem for Lolth. I expect horrid behavior from evil gods and goddesses; not so much from supposedly good ones.
I disagree. You like Eilistraee, and I don't. I don't think the "mother of the drow" thing cuts it. If mommy likes your sister better then you, or implies that your sister is better then you, or more worthy then you...then she's a crappy mother. Just like Eilistraee is a crappy goddess
Well, that is obvious at this point.
But again Eilistraee doesn't think males have less value than females. She thinks that they are better suited for different tasks (the example I made before). Oh, btw, read DIFFERENT, not lesser tasks. The mother goddess flavor was to explain from a metagaming point of view why she has only female priestesses.
And no, you may not like her, but Eilistraee is not a crappy goddess. I'm curious about what you'd think of her if she returned with non gender selective priesthood.
Different but not lesser doesn't work when you use it as an excuse barring females from the military in combat roles. Separate but equal didn't work with schools. It doesn't work in my fantasy religions, either. There's no reason a male couldnt preach the word as well as a female.
I disagree. You like Eilistraee, and I don't. I don't think the "mother of the drow" thing cuts it. If mommy likes your sister better then you, or implies that your sister is better then you, or more worthy then you...then she's a crappy mother. Just like Eilistraee is a crappy goddess
Well, that is obvious at this point.
But again Eilistraee doesn't think males have less value than females. She thinks that they are better suited for different tasks (the example I made before). Oh, btw, read DIFFERENT, not lesser tasks. The mother goddess flavor was to explain from a metagaming point of view why she has only female priestesses.
And no, you may not like her, but Eilistraee is not a crappy goddess. I'm curious about what you'd think of her if she returned with non gender selective priesthood.
Different but not lesser doesn't work when you use it as an excuse barring females from the military in combat roles. Separate but equal didn't work with schools. It doesn't work in my fantasy religions, either. There's no reason a male couldnt preach the word as well as a female.
I know, in fact I don't like it. I was, as I said, trying to explain the designing choices in a flavorful way because, aside from that, Eilistraee makes really an awesome goddess. I mean she gave away her happiness in Arvandor for the drow, and -selflessly- dedicates herself fully to them (what I wrote in my first reply to you). That HAS to account for something.
I know, in fact I don't like it. I was, as I said, trying to explain the designing choices because, aside from that, Eilistraee makes really an awesome goddess. I mean she gave away her happiness in Arvandor for the drow, and -selflessly- dedicates herself fully to them (what I wrote in my first reply to you) that HAS to account for something.
Sure it does, just not much.
Aside from her man-hater issue, her fluff, just sucks. it's awful. Goddess of dancing naked in the moonlight? That does nothing for me. I'd like her a lot more if she were militant, a little more aggressive. Her short time as the masked lady was actually kinda cool. She was a little darker. Iwas like, finally, an Eilistraee that might be worth my time. Then she gets herself shivved. Eilistraee reminds me of care bears and my little ponies. Bleh.
Pick up your sword, and go FIGHT for the drow you supposedly want to mother. Give the drow something to respect.
I know, in fact I don't like it. I was, as I said, trying to explain the designing choices because, aside from that, Eilistraee makes really an awesome goddess. I mean she gave away her happiness in Arvandor for the drow, and -selflessly- dedicates herself fully to them (what I wrote in my first reply to you) that HAS to account for something.
Sure it does, just not much.
Aside from her man-hater issue, her fluff, just sucks. it's awful. Goddess of dancing naked in the moonlight? That does nothing for me. I'd like her a lot more if she were militant, a little more aggressive. Her short time as the masked lady was actually kinda cool. She was a little darker. Iwas like, finally, an Eilistraee that might be worth my time. Then she gets herself shivved. Eilistraee reminds me of care bears and my little ponies. Bleh.
Pick up your sword, and go FIGHT for the drow you supposedly want to mother. Give the drow something to respect.
Apologies about the Wall of Text.
In my first reply to you I talked about that. Ok, dancing naked is not necessary, but dance, music and beauty are one of the ways to lure the drow towards the kind of life they lost.
Eilistraee wants to show them that they have choice over what Lolth's indoctrination would have them to believe. She wants to open their mind to alternatives to violence and constant struggle.
Think about that. The Dark Maiden uses violence as last resource, but she teaches sword dance and hunting to her priestesses because they must know how to protect her ''sons and daughters'' (i.e. fight for them) and help them flourish in a hostile place.
However, she also wants to teach the drow freedom of self-expression, thought and choice, to teach them life as a mother would. If her followers went around swinging a sword with a ''redeem or die/or I don't give a crap about you'' self-righteous attitude, they would show the drow that Lolth is, after all, right and that the only way of life is to dominate others with violence. By showing the ''lost'' drow kindness, acceptance, and that they have a great intrinsical value that goes way beyond their ''powah'', Eilistraee helps them finding their personal path to redemption, which comes from understanding and can not be given with a sword.
We're taliking about convincing someone that he/she wasted his/her whole life up to now and violence just is not the way to do it. That's also part of what makes her special in my eyes.
And she does indeed fight for the ones she wants to mother, protecting and aiding them through her priestesses (of course I don't think you pretend that she sends avatars in their defence, because that would just ruin the game; even if she could do so. After all, the 2e sourcebooks say she can go rage when her children are hurt).
So what she did for the drow accounts for much, and not just little. And it is an act of selfless love for a race, totally worth of respect.
However, I agree with you that more badassery would make her perfect if coupled with non gender selective priesthood. But she shouldn't be darker like the Masked Lady was. She is a patroness of song, art and beauty and that shouldn't be taken away from her flavor, it is one of her tools to reintroduce the drow to the life they lost and to bond with them (think about the evensong ritual that every follower can perform, in which they share their feelings with the goddess).
That said, you don't like Eilistraee for basically being /too/ good and soft (beside the priesthood thingy) and it is fine ofc. But it is no reason to get rid of her instead of perfecting her. As much as you don't like the goddess you can't deny that the conflict among her, Vhaeraun and Lolth has a huge role in spicing up a race that would otherwise be a GH drow copy-paste , i.e. ,as i said in a previous post, a bunch of indoctrinated, frustrated and sadistic people, tools of revenge for their spider deity, whose goal in life is unanimously collecting power, dominating others and inflicting pain, just because, for the sake of it, and who cannot think outside this box (at least, the vast majority can't).
What was said earlier in this topic about the book gives me good hope to see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun in canon again. Even as a niche of little infuence in the Realms, not as poweful as they were (exarches archfey or w/e demigods are called now is more than fine) but at least capable of inspiring the drow/dark elves with what they stand for. After all being underdogs and rebels, being surrounded by a veil of mystery is part of Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's charme, at least to me.
Honestly, I am curious to see what happens moving forward. Remember, at the end of the last Smedman book (Ascendancy of the Last perhaps...I dont recall) Corellon took Eilistraee's place at the sava board against Lolth. That could essentially put the entire Seldarine in play for gods for the drow, depending on how they choose to shake out that bit of lore.
In fact, I seem to recall reading somewhere, that Sehanine in particular, was looking after the interests of drow with Eilistraee out of the picture. Given Sehanine's areas of interest (Moon, beauty, love etc...very similar to Eilistraee's) not to mention her specific opposition of the evil drow Deities (namely Lolth these days; especially given that Lolth, aka Araushnee and Sehanine's hubby Corellon used to be an item, the whole hate the ex thing) it stands to reason that Sehanine would be all about grabbing the drow who are looking for some change.
Well, getting Shevarash on board would probably be a bit difficult but nothing's easy.
Ed Greenwood has said this on Candlekeep forums in regards to male clerics of Eilistraee.
November 5, 2006: "It is true that for some decades in the Realms (the time covered by the Realms boxed sets of both the 1st and 2nd Edition) there were apparently no male clerics of Lolth and no male clerics of Eilistraee, and no non-drow clergy of either goddess.
However, matters have changed.
Some (not all!) priestesses of Eilistraee believe the Dancer is worried about something dark she's foreseen. Others disagree - - but all admit the Goddess has, for reasons she's not divulged, changed the directives she gives her clergy and lay worshippers, to become far more inclusive. For one thing, the "dream visions" she's sent to senior established clergy have begun to direct them to accept both males and individuals of many races into the ranks of her clergy. (So, yes, Kentinal, a goblin priestess, gnome priestess, silver dragon, hill giants, and male priests of all stripes now ARE possible. We still don't know [not being able to personally quiz Eilistraee] if there are any races that remain unacceptable as her clergy, but whereas before the answer was: all of them except drow, and female drow at that, the answer now is: possibly; all certainty is gone.) There are even apparently lycanthropes and shapechanging races among the clergy of Eilistraee.
Yes, you heard me right: there now ARE a few males among her church, but to enter it they have all "Danced The Changedance" and spent time as female, just as Mystra caused Elminster to spend time as Elmara - - and for the same reasons: greater understanding and sensitivity of "the life of the other gender." One cannot truly feel the Divine Dance of Eilistraee PROPERLY except as a female, and so her (still very rare, few, and generally secretive about it) male priests must spend some time as a female (not just for the duration of a ritual, but they must do some everyday living as a female). The most accomplished drow, elf, half-elf, and human male priests seem to feel the need to take female form for some days every few years or so (if they wish to "cleave more fully to the Goddess" and thus rise in levels), and most spend longer and longer times in female form. Not all female priests of the Goddess fully trust the males, and they don't tend to rise much in the church hierarchy (no matter what character levels they achieve).
More than that, many drow priestesses of Eilistraee are unhappy about this, and may prove hostile (not to the point of violence or refusal to accept or aid, but with a coldness in manner and a wary "always watching over" any males, until they achieve acceptance on a personal level [e.g. "I still don't hold with allowing males - - males! - - to join the dances, but Elorand can be trusted; he's proven himself over and over, and don't think we haven't tested him. Other males, I still don't trust!"). Eilistraee has always had enough personal contact with her clergy that none of them would think of disbelieving that she truly means this "new way" to occur and to be followed - - and no established priestess of Eilistraee will renounce this new order, either. ("Reluctantly accepting and unhappily coping" is a good description of their state; "defying the goddess and rejecting males or trying to trick or lead them into fatal mishaps so we can be rid of them" would NOT be an accurate characterization." - Ed Greenwood
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