# Community

 Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Character Optim.. Value of a +X to d20 1/encounter vs static +1.
Page 1 of 6  •
Switch to Forum Live View Value of a +X to d20 1/encounter vs static +1.
1 year ago  ::  Dec 02, 2011 - 9:39AM #1
mellored
Date Joined: Jul 8, 2008
Posts: 19,449
What is +X 1/encounter worth?  (such as wizard's wand impliment, or shield).  This is for offense and defense.

### NOT ALL ATTACKS ARE CREATED EQUAL.

Bonses for big/early attacks makes dynamic values more valueble.
Actions cost also needs to be taken into consideration, making static more valueble.

X = Number of attacks per encounter (or day, if you want to figure out how much a daily counts for)
Y = Bonus
*Note that this assumes that you can use the full bonus.  If you hit/miss on a Z, then Y=Z-1.
(i.e.  if you hit on a 6, then a +8 bonus will only be worth 5).

Static:
Y * .05 * X

Dynamic (1/encounter):
1-((1-(Y *.05))^X)                 1 - Chance of it being NOT used.

Next Attack:  (not really interesting, so i'm not gunna chart it)
Y * .05

Dynamic vs Static = number of attacks to be equal  (using a graph method).
+2 vs +1 = 16.47

+3 vs +1 = 19.1
+3 vs +2 = 6.55

+4 vs +1 = 19.76
+4 vs +2 = 8.5
+4 vs +3 = 3.83

+5 vs +2 = 9.31
+5 vs +3 = 5.1
+5 vs +4 = 2.7

You do between 5-15 attacks per encounter, depending on build (multi/off action attack / AOE do more)
You are attacked ....???  per encounter.
guides Show

my builds Show

F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter.  With some warlord stuff.  Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch   Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1.  If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation.  5 of these will end anything.  Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways.  Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit.  Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones.  Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Cancel
1 year ago  ::  Dec 02, 2011 - 9:51AM #2
AlanSHB
Date Joined: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 58
I think it somewhat depends on build.  For instance,  a twin striking ranger or any avenger, probably values the +1 more.  On the other side of the coin, a wizard trying to land a daily probably values the +x more.

Some attacks simply matter more, and some classes by design make a lot more rolls than others.  I think generalizing here might actually be the wrong approach.  Rather than trying to sort out how many attacks per encounter, etc, it might be better to identify when it's better to take a penalty to hit on at-wills in order to maximize an encounter/daily.

Cancel
1 year ago  ::  Dec 02, 2011 - 9:53AM #3
GelatinousOctahedron
Date Joined: Jun 30, 2008
Posts: 5,740
This is a very good question.  I have markings of the victor on my goliath and its roughly the equivalent of a +5 to one attack roll/encounter.  It think it would vary a lot by the number of attacks, which varies significatly for classes.  But starting at 10 is a good start.

And there are next "attack roll" bonuses and "next attack" variations.
Cancel
1 year ago  ::  Dec 02, 2011 - 10:12AM #4
Armisael
Date Joined: Sep 17, 2007
Posts: 11,299
Is it for a turn or for a single attack? This is important.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Cancel
1 year ago  ::  Dec 02, 2011 - 10:36AM #5
mellored
Date Joined: Jul 8, 2008
Posts: 19,449

Dec 2, 2011 -- 10:12AM, Armisael wrote:

Is it for a turn or for a single attack? This is important.

Everything's calculated per attack.

guides Show

my builds Show

F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter.  With some warlord stuff.  Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch   Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1.  If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation.  5 of these will end anything.  Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways.  Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit.  Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones.  Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Cancel
1 year ago  ::  Dec 02, 2011 - 10:45AM #6
Armisael
Date Joined: Sep 17, 2007
Posts: 11,299
+1 Static is better then. Per-attack doesn't help you on a nova turn but +1 Static will. +X/Turn is pretty much always worth it though.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Cancel
1 year ago  ::  Dec 02, 2011 - 10:55AM #7
mellored
Date Joined: Jul 8, 2008
Posts: 19,449

Dec 2, 2011 -- 10:45AM, Armisael wrote:

+1 Static is better then. Per-attack doesn't help you on a nova turn but +1 Static will. +X/Turn is pretty much always worth it though.

Nope.

Getting +2 to one attack is gunna increase your hits more then a static +1.

Unless you can pull off more then 10 attacks (probably closer to 15 or so) and less then 20, (+1 always wins at 20).

guides Show

my builds Show

F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter.  With some warlord stuff.  Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch   Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1.  If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation.  5 of these will end anything.  Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways.  Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit.  Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones.  Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Cancel
1 year ago  ::  Dec 02, 2011 - 11:03AM #8
Armisael
Date Joined: Sep 17, 2007
Posts: 11,299
Ah, but you're forgetting a key fact mello:

Reality doesn't play by the maths. You're talking about dynamic boosters. I'm talking about getting a boost to your next roll. I trust you can see where this is going?
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Cancel
1 year ago  ::  Dec 02, 2011 - 11:06AM #9
Anihilation
Date Joined: Oct 15, 2009
Posts: 87
I think it's worth adding in variables for your Attack Bonus and the Defense to hit.  If you have an attack bonus of +10 and you want to hit Defense of 16, that means only 30% of your rolls would be subject to either the static or dynamic bonus and the dynamic bonus runs a higher chance of wasted bonus since a roll of 5 would "waste" 5% or more to-hit chance.

I think the forumla is more complex than you've created, but I'm not enough of an expert to apply all of the numbers needed to make it more accurate.
Cancel
1 year ago  ::  Dec 02, 2011 - 11:10AM #10
mellored
Date Joined: Jul 8, 2008
Posts: 19,449

Dec 2, 2011 -- 11:03AM, Armisael wrote:

Ah, but you're forgetting a key fact mello:

Reality doesn't play by the maths. You're talking about dynamic boosters. I'm talking about getting a boost to your next roll. I trust you can see where this is going?

Yes i am talking about dynamic boosters.

Next attack is pretty limited.  If you do 5 attacks, you need a +5 to match +1 to hit.  And it runs into a ceiling.  So if you hit on a 4, it's really only worth +3.

guides Show

my builds Show

F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter.  With some warlord stuff.  Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch   Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1.  If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation.  5 of these will end anything.  Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways.  Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit.  Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones.  Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.