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Switch to Forum Live View Why no professions?
2 years ago  ::  Dec 02, 2011 - 7:29AM #1
mhbjarkistef
Date Joined: Sep 6, 2010
Posts: 998
Why are there no professions or craft skills in 4e?

This hasn't bothered me much, but I remember when I started as a DM I actually gave my group some free Martial Practices just so they had some abilities outside of combat (the fighter and the warlord, mainly). 

Too many times have I had one skill left to train and go "screw it, I'll just take nature" without having a clue why my character knows one herb from the other. It's not that I can't make up a skill of my own, simply use thievery for crafting or just roleplay a hobby. It's that feeling when you have one skill left to train and see "crafting" in your skill list. It makes you go "Heeeyyyyy, what If I'm a pasttime jewelcrafter?!". It makes you think more about your character and what he does when he's not saving the world than you would otherwise (at least for new players). It makes you think a bit "what did I do before all this?". I know the benefits are minescule (but might set up some awesome moment), but I seriously don't see any drawbacks to having a craft and profession skill. Something > nothing, so why where they taken out of the game?

From now on all my characters gain 1 extra trained skill and the ability to choose 1 crafting and 2 profession skills... But it still makes me wonder why they were taken out of the game...

 

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2 years ago  ::  Dec 02, 2011 - 7:35AM #2
thespaceinvader
Date Joined: Oct 28, 2010
Posts: 9,783
Because it's a game about heroic monster-slayers, not a game about jewellers, basically.  Also, because the skill system is much more abstracted, and virtually anything can be made an application of one of the skills.  Making jewellery, for instance, would be an application of Thievery.
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 02, 2011 - 7:40AM #3
Helnae
Date Joined: Jan 29, 2010
Posts: 880
Professions can be easily added through a character's backstory. Fluff and all that.
"Censorship is telling a man he can’t have a steak just because a baby can’t chew it.”
~Mark Twain
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 02, 2011 - 7:44AM #4
AbdulAlhazred
Date Joined: Jan 9, 2009
Posts: 10,302
PHB2 has backgrounds, one option of which is 'profession'. The idea being that forcing players to decide between a highly useful adventuring skill and something that might come up once or twice in the whole campaign isn't really a good deal. Most players feel like their skill slots are valuable and they want to use them for important things. Thus if you made profession (and craft and perform) into skills that cost a slot or even part of a slot most players will simply not ever choose them. As a background element OTOH the player has no reason NOT to give his character a profession.

The other reason they aren't skills is simply that having a limitless open skill list makes skills into a measure of incompetence. If there is a 'pottery' skill then lack of that skill (which will be neigh universal) means the DM is going to have to say you're not competent in pottery (otherwise why have the skill at all). Thus the 3.x style open skill list basically dictated that each character knew only a narrow range of things and had little or no competency in other areas. By contrast the small fixed skill list used in 4e only implies that you're PARTICULARLY competent in some areas. There's no pottery skill that has to be justified by the incompetence of everyone that doesn't have it. Instead any character can plausibly have some knowlege of the subject and may have something written into their background that indicates particular competence. Since they didn't have to give up an adventuring skill to put that on their sheet it is OK if some of the other characters aren't completely useless at pottery either. It isn't like the character with that background feels ripped off as they would in 3.x.

Of course nothing stops players and DMs from using skill slots or feats however they want in their home games. It isn't going to have a really major impact on the game if you decide that a character can spend a skill slot to write "really good at throwing pots" on their character sheet. Likewise you could maybe convince the DM that you want to say be a desert nomad who's Athletics skill works well for climbing cliffs but who can't swim for anything. There's no RULE for that kind of thing, but again the game isn't going to break if the DM lets players tweak their characters a bit to fit with some specific concept.
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 02, 2011 - 7:51AM #5
gwydion9
Date Joined: Jun 8, 2008
Posts: 1,714
Many crafting skills are background and have no effect on the game, and so it makes sense not to force players to spend game resources, like training slots, on being something like an underwater basket weaver.  Creating rules for underwater basket weaving adds needless complexity to the game and diverts resources from being trained in things players will actually find useful in the course of fighting monsters and being heroes. 

In the case of crafting mundane armor, weaponry, and items, there's little reason to do so after the early heroic tier, since characters need and are assumed to have magical weaponry, so there's little need to make rules to do so.  Crafting magical items is well-covered by existing rules.


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2 years ago  ::  Dec 02, 2011 - 9:16AM #6
mccowen
  • Heroic Dungeon Master
Date Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Posts: 1,859
This is one of those issues that comes up over and over again. The developers have actually been pretty clear about the issue, starting with (IIRC) the "Worlds and Monsters" preview book for 4e.

But fortunately we have a recent, official answer. Quoting from Rich Baker's "Rule of Three" column on 9/12/11:

    Why were craft skills removed from D&D in 4th edition?

This was a fiercely debated issue in the 4th Edition design and development team. One school of thought held that the Craft skill is a fun tool for customizing characters; even if no one ever really uses the skill, folks appreciate having the option to write it on their character sheet and might actually make the small sacrifice of taking a skill just for flavor. The other school of thought (which ultimately prevailed) argued that the shorter, tighter, and more focused the skill list was, the better it would be. A Craft skill with no real game impact would only confuse new players trying to navigate the skill rules. Designers who held this view pointed out that nothing prevented players from writing "blacksmith," "leatherworker," "glassblower," or anything else on their character sheets. In hindsight, perhaps we should have included a small sidebar to emphasize that point.


There is a simple patch for this, of course: just add the Craft skill to your game. The rules and DCs from the 3rd Edition Craft skill are close enough to what would be appropriate for 4th Edition games. And how often does it really matter whether your character hits a DC 20 Blacksmithing check, anyway? Most of what players want out of a Craft skill is just permission to write "blacksmith" on their character sheet and to say that their character knows something about being a blacksmith.


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2 years ago  ::  Dec 02, 2011 - 9:18AM #7
CrowScape
Date Joined: Aug 30, 2010
Posts: 1,290

Dec 2, 2011 -- 7:29AM, mhbjarkistef wrote:

Too many times have I had one skill left to train and go "screw it, I'll just take nature" without having a clue why my character knows one herb from the other. It's not that I can't make up a skill of my own, simply use thievery for crafting or just roleplay a hobby. It's that feeling when you have one skill left to train and see "crafting" in your skill list. It makes you go "Heeeyyyyy, what If I'm a pasttime jewelcrafter?!". It makes you think more about your character and what he does when he's not saving the world than you would otherwise (at least for new players). It makes you think a bit "what did I do before all this?".



Actually, it prevents you from thinking, because if you didn't put any skill points in "Profession: Farming," then shut up, you weren't a farmer.

Looking at my 3.5 characters versus my 4e characters, my 4e characters have more extensive backstories than my 3.5. Hands down.

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2 years ago  ::  Dec 02, 2011 - 9:24AM #8
JRedGiant1
Date Joined: Jun 14, 2009
Posts: 1,926
You may make hammers or cookies or bookcases as a profession. I kill stuff and take their money, because they have green skin and fangs and I don't. Wink
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2 years ago  ::  Dec 02, 2011 - 9:32AM #9
Stix_Remix
Date Joined: Jun 6, 2008
Posts: 195

Dec 2, 2011 -- 7:29AM, mhbjarkistef wrote:

Why are there no professions or craft skills in 4e?


Martial Practice - Master Artisan (level 1)
Allows you to make pretty much any mundane item of your desire.

Really, that's all you need to be a "crafter."  There's later practices that let you even forge magic weapons and armor.

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2 years ago  ::  Dec 02, 2011 - 9:51AM #10
DavidArgall
Date Joined: Dec 5, 2007
Posts: 1,613

Dec 2, 2011 -- 9:18AM, CrowScape wrote:


Looking at my 3.5 characters versus my 4e characters, my 4e characters have more extensive backstories than my 3.5. Hands down.



      My case would entirely be the reverse.  I wrote up full pages for my 3.5 PCs, but not even a line for most of my 4e.  Of course, I'd say most of the reason is personal whim, not anything to do with the game, but I am busier with 4e mechanics than I was with 3.5.

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