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2 years ago ::
Nov 21, 2011 - 5:30PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2006
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Now that we have multiple classes that have sub-classes with different power source combinations, it really brings up the question of what power sources the MC feats grant. Since base class and sub class are no longer one and the same, the base class needs to have power sources assigned to it for these purposes. For instance, a Ranger (Ranger) is martial, but a Ranger (Scout) and Ranger (Hunter) are martial AND primal.
The problem is made most clear when put in the context of the classes that have re-named PHB classes. For example, we have the wizard parent class, and we can have Arcanists, Mages, Bladesingers, and Witches. Each of the sub-classes is specifically given a power source, but the parent class label isn't actually provided a power source, so by RAW at the moment, wizard MC does not make you count as being an arcane class, because only the sub-classes have the power source listing.
So this is realy in need of errata to clarify how MC-ing and power sources works...
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2 years ago ::
Nov 21, 2011 - 9:30PM
#2
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You have never counted as your MC's power source, any more than you have counted as its role (per PH1 FAQ #33). You only count as the class, just like the rule says.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 21, 2011 - 11:48PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Dec 25, 2009
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You have never counted as your MC's power source, any more than you have counted as its role (per PH1 FAQ #33).
You only count as the class, just like the rule says.
That's not at all true, because the feats that require a particular power source all require 'any [power source] class'.
Since you count as (for example) a fighter, that qualifies you as 'any martial class', because fighter is a martial class.
I would think that MCing into a multi-power-source class would count you as a member of a class of either power source, just as being the class itself does. As for subclasses, this is really just a matter of sloppy errata; any generic wizard MC should be relisted as arcanist MC, and so on for other classes.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 22, 2011 - 7:39AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2008
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TIchrimo, that question is an issue of qualifying as a member of a role not qualifying as a power source.
People have been using multiclassing as a way to get access to feats, paragon paths, and EDs with specific power source requirements for a while. Both CBs allow it and I have never seen any evidence that this is not RAI.
I agree this needs errata, or at least a FAQ for the multiclassing into multiple sources.
my handbooks & builds
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2 years ago ::
Nov 22, 2011 - 7:41AM
#5
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You have never counted as your MC's power source, any more than you have counted as its role (per PH1 FAQ #33).
You only count as the class, just like the rule says.
That's not at all true, because the feats that require a particular power source all require 'any [power source] class'.
Since you count as (for example) a fighter, that qualifies you as 'any martial class', because fighter is a martial class.
I would think that MCing into a multi-power-source class would count you as a member of a class of either power source, just as being the class itself does. As for subclasses, this is really just a matter of sloppy errata; any generic wizard MC should be relisted as arcanist MC, and so on for other classes.
But that's just it -- if the feat doesn't expressly say a class, you don't qualify.
A fighter who multiclasses wizard qualifies neither for feats with a prerequisite of "Controller role" nor "Arcane class". Or are you arguing that the wording "Arcane class" makes it qualify where the wording "Arcane power source" would not? (Because both wordings do exist.)
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2 years ago ::
Nov 22, 2011 - 12:27PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2006
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If you MC sorcerer you count as a member of that class for the purpose of feat prereqs. Sorc is an arcane class, so you can take any feat with a prereq of any arcane class. But this no longer works for classes with a main class/sub class break because the main class doesn't have a power source designator.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 22, 2011 - 2:49PM
#7
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Maybe if I say it a third time... The rule -- the one you quoted-- does not say you count as the class' power source, just the class.
Just because "full" members of that class gain the power source does not mean that multiclass members of that class gain the power source (just like they don't gain the role of their multiclass).
So it doesn't matter that there's a break in power sources and roles with the new class/subclass layout, because none of it is inherented via multiclass feats. (I do agree there is some cleanup needed for the multilass feats of the renamed classes (templar, arcanist, weaponmaster, etc.), but that is a separate issue.)
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2 years ago ::
Nov 22, 2011 - 4:51PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Feb 13, 2006
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I do not mean to be rude, but that is innane and against /years/ worth of consensus. How would you adjudicate multiclass power swaps? I count as the class, I have powers from the class and the source, but just because the rules don't specifically and emphatically state how to gain a power source despite fairly sensible and clear RAI you cannot.
Sure.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 22, 2011 - 5:17PM
#9
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What "years worth of consensus" have you seen? I've raised this point a few times in recent months, each time with a different outcome. If it were such an inane idea, I'd expect to have been solidly smacked down already. Instead:
Some agree with me.
Some disagree with me.
Some think it will depend on the wording ("any [source] class" works, but specifically requiring a source by name won't).
That doesn't sound like consensus to me.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 22, 2011 - 5:32PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Feb 13, 2006
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I quote the char op board. The whole thing. Since basically day one, people have been posting builds utilizing this very assumption, mostly to poach martial power feats or the occasional PP. No one has poo-pood those builds then or now. That is the consensus I speak of.
I grant it does not specifically state you gain the source. But it does not need to. What is a fighter as far as prereqs are concerned? It is a martial defender. If you count as a fighter for prereqs, then you count for /all/ the things a fighter counts for (like being a martial defender).
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