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Dec 5, 2011 -- 1:17PM, Mand12 wrote:

You do what the feat says.  The feat says you move them, and so if they exist you move them.  Invoked shrouds disappear, so you can't move them.  Yes, IS moves shrouds no matter how the target dies the shrouds move (that's the entire point, so that if your allies or some other environmental effect kill it your striker damage bonus isn't completely wasted).

You're seriously telling me people are arguing that you can move shrouds that don't exist?  They're just wrong, it's as simple as that.  As far as not being able to invoke the moved shrouds, if you're claiming that people aren't being targeted by the shrouds they're receiving then that's also wrong.

Just because a thread is long and contentious does not mean that there can't be one side that's just flat out wrong.

Sure, and you're flat out wrong. It's been proven in this thread.

Dec 5, 2011 -- 2:12PM, Mand12 wrote:

Assassins shroud says that the shrouds are removed after the damage has been dealt.

No, it doesn't:
"If you invoke your shrouds, the attack deals 1d6 damage per shroud, minus one shroud if the attack misses, and all your shrouds then vanish from the target."

There is no timing distinction between the attack's damage and the vanishing of the shrouds.

Is english your second language?

"And then" is a timing distinction. An order of opperation is spelled out clearly in the power.

You are being obtuse.

Dec 5, 2011 -- 4:07PM, Mand12 wrote:

First off, Combat Challenge isn't actually a power.  It's in the Compendium, but the thing you quoted is actually not a properly defined power.  That's not really that important, though, because of the larger solution to this endeavor.

It took me a bit to coalesce my thoughts into something that I hope will be clear.  Here goes.

The fundamental conclusion is this:  hit, miss, and effect lines resolve in their entirety without interruption, with two exceptions.

There are precisely two non-action events that are defined as being reactable events no matter when they happen:  attacks, and squares of movement.  Each of the examples given of sequential effects within a Hit line, from Tide of Iron to Brash Strike, involve one or more of these.  This includes things like "Make a secondary attack" in the hit line.  These indicate gaps where part of the hit resolves, then a subsequent part of the hit, as a result of the use of the power.

Other effects that appear sequential aren't.  Something like "Hit: 1d8+Wis damage, and the target is dazed.  You gain regeneration 2 until the end of the encounter."  None of those steps involve either attacks or movement, and so they all resolve together.  There isn't a reaction step between the damage and the daze, or between the daze and the application of the regeneration.  Despite the fact that there's a comma, and hell even a period, the entire hit line resolves simultaneously and cannot be interrupted or reacted to.

Compare this with something like Come And Get It, which quite clearly is sequential in nature.  Targets hit are pulled, and if after the pull they are adjacent, they take 1[W] damage.  If a creature has a reaction that says "Trigger: A creature enters a square adjacent to you.  Effect:  You push the target 5 squares."  If you're adjacent to the fighter and the fighter pulls the target to a square adjacent to the both of you, and you use your power, the target will not take damage.  The pull effect from Come And Get It isn't yet fully resolved when the push happens, and so when it does resolve the dude isn't adjacent and so doesn't take [W].

Again, I'd like to emphasize that all of the mid-line interruptions are either due to movement or to a secondary attack taking place.  That does not invalidate the general rule, because movement and attacks have a specific timing exception to the general rules.

That's great, but I have one problem. You say, "The fundamental conclusion is this:". How do we reach that conclusion? Where is it written down that we have to follow your convoluted system of exceptions? As far as I can see, there are no rules that explain this, nothing that says we should do this at all. The only rules are the rules we read in the books, read in english. Until you pull up some rules to back up why each part of your system of following things works as such, I'm going to follow the english. It's really that simple. (Even if there are rules that say exactly this - why? Why would they bother? The system is written in english and they can just use the proper conventions to express the same thing.. in english, without need for ruling such an obscure system. Then we wouldn't need to work out all this crazy stuff, it'd be written right there in the power. Which is what I think it is at the moment anyway.)

How is Combat Challenge not a power, by the way? It has a power card, a range, targets, an effect line, an action... Even a power type (Fighter Attack)! How do we define powers if not by these things? And what about item powers? Are item powers not powers either? Why are they called item powers? And again, what rules are telling us that these are not powers?

Dec 6, 2011 -- 2:05PM, Mand12 wrote:

Dec 6, 2011 -- 6:53AM, JRedGiant1 wrote:

Assassin's Shroud Invocation: First, you decide to invoke the shrouds. Then, you make an attack roll. Then you deal damage as appropiate based on the results of the attack roll. Then, the shrouds disappear from the target of your attack.

This is not correct.  That's not what Assassin's Shroud says to do.  I don't know how much more insight I can provide on this, but that's just flat out not what it says to do.  It says you invoke the shrouds before you make an attack roll, and also that when you invoke the shrouds they disappear.  Both of those happen before the attack roll.

No, it is correct. The shrouds do not vanish before the attack roll. The effect says that the attack deals damage, then the shrouds vanish. As I have said, in english, this means that the shrouds vanish -after- damage is dealt. I don't see any rules that say we interpret powers in any other way than the default, english way.

Strictly, the effect line says you may invoke shrouds before the attack. This is the only thing that happens before the attack. If and only if you invoked shrouds before the attack, that attack deals the outlined damage, and then shrouds vanish. As I said, the only thing that must happen before the attack roll is the invocation.