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1 year ago ::
Dec 11, 2011 - 12:10AM
#1461
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Max I'd like a quote please to shows that a martial push is a physical push. Where does it say that a martial push is a push in the strictest sense of the word.
Push, pull and slide are forced movement and I cant find any kind of quote that a fighter that pushes is physically pushing a creature and not forceing it to move through manuvers or attacks that might cause it to back off or any other kind of thing that you keep disreguarding.
Shield Slam Fighter 3
You follow up a successful attack by slamming your shield into the enemy, knocking him aside.
Hit: You push the target 1 square and knock it prone.
To say that now all powers are really abstract and the fighter is not actually doing the actions seems a cop out. I think it would be simpler to say there is a size limit to things you can push.
So if I kick you in the shin you don't think it's conceivable you might loose your balance and/or step back?
You see no similarity whatsover to me kicking you in the shin and a fantasy MADE UP fighter bashing a shield into a fantasy MADE UP larger creatures shin?
meh if fighters can push dragons around I don't really care, i'd prefer to put some kind of limit on physical powers, but its a preference and not that important to me.
just thought i would find an example.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 11, 2011 - 12:15AM
#1462
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Date Joined:
Nov 15, 2007
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Max I'd like a quote please to shows that a martial push is a physical push. Where does it say that a martial push is a push in the strictest sense of the word.
Push, pull and slide are forced movement and I cant find any kind of quote that a fighter that pushes is physically pushing a creature and not forceing it to move through manuvers or attacks that might cause it to back off or any other kind of thing that you keep disreguarding.
Shield Slam Fighter 3
You follow up a successful attack by slamming your shield into the enemy, knocking him aside.
Hit: You push the target 1 square and knock it prone.
To say that now all powers are really abstract and the fighter is not actually doing the actions seems a cop out. I think it would be simpler to say there is a size limit to things you can push.
So if I kick you in the shin you don't think it's conceivable you might loose your balance and/or step back?
You see no similarity whatsover to me kicking you in the shin and a fantasy MADE UP fighter bashing a shield into a fantasy MADE UP larger creatures shin?
meh if fighters can push dragons around I don't really care, i'd prefer to put some kind of limit on physical powers, but its a preference and not that important to me.
just thought i would find an example.
Once again PUSH is a mechanical term. It is used to describe MECHANICAL game effects. It does not precisely define the flavor or fluff of what is happening. The flavor of the example power you found does not say push.
Looks like you found a bad example.
And by the way nice dodge.
Because you like something, it does not mean it is good.
Because you dislike something, it does not mean it is bad.
Because it is your opinion, it does not make it everyone's opinion.
Because it is your opinion, it does not make it truth.
Because it is your opinion, it does not make it the general consensus.
Whatever side you want to take, at least remember these things.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 11, 2011 - 12:59AM
#1463
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Once again PUSH is a mechanical term. It is used to describe MECHANICAL game effects. It does not precisely define the flavor or fluff of what is happening. The flavor of the example power you found does not say push.
Looks like you found a bad example.
And by the way nice dodge.
Whenever you have to describe things in D&D as a mechanical game effect - its fail.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 11, 2011 - 1:07AM
#1464
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Date Joined:
Nov 11, 2011
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Once again PUSH is a mechanical term. It is used to describe MECHANICAL game effects. It does not precisely define the flavor or fluff of what is happening. The flavor of the example power you found does not say push.
Looks like you found a bad example.
And by the way nice dodge.
Whenever you have to describe things in D&D as a mechanical game effect - its fail.
You mean like saying a Bandit doesn't die when my Fighter delivers his 1d8 +3 hit with his sword because, you know, as a mechanical game effect, the Bandit only lost some Hit Points while my Fighter's sword never actually hit the enemy?
Because otherwise you will have to explain me how this Bandit took my blade in the face and was still standing.
Or how about explaining me the retaliation of said Bandit? How could he missed my Fighter? He was standing in front of HIM! I guess you could say the Bandit just couldn't touch my AC -3, but careful, that would be describing soemthing in D&D as a mechanical game effect, and we both know how much fail that involves.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 11, 2011 - 2:18AM
#1465
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Date Joined:
May 13, 2009
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Well then, fighters are also an abstraction, as is gold, a sword, the planet the game is run on.....everything is an abstraction. Why play the game at all? We can just do abstract stuff with our minds like some internet chat room.
Well... yes. Everything is, indeed, an abstraction. Thinking otherwise would be... delusional? To think anything going on in the D&D game in our mind is real... yeah I think delusional fits the bill quite well. It is all abstract. None of it is real. If you think any of it is, you might want to go visit a therapist.
The fact is, a dragon cannot be forced to move by a fighter no matter how you try to justify it, at least not without some sort of magic.
First, the actually true fact is, in D&D 4e, yes he can because the rules say so. It is merely your opinion that a Fighter cannot move a Dragon. The rules completely and unambiguously disagree with you.
Second, the Fighter doesn't force the Dragon to move. (but we've been saying this for at least 500 posts and you just keep saying "nuh-uh") It just gives the choice between "move backwards" and "try fighting without your head". It's the Dragon that decides that "moving backwards" is probably the best solution. Would you accept the power if it were written like this?
Tide of Iron:
(blabla)
Hit: Damage and the target chooses to move back 5 feet if sufficient space is available, or dies.
Because it's mechanically the same thing, except that now it's clear that the Fighter doesn't push (like in the actual resolving of the power) but merely makes the dragon automatically choose the least painful of two presented options. It's also a load of needless clutter only needed to please people who like to have their martials fit their very limited concept of "mundane", so I can imagine they didn't do it. Just wondering if it'd help you understand what is actually happening.
"You push the target X squares" does not mean "You physically push the target x squares" - one only has to look at non-martial options that use the same terminology to grasp that (beguilling strands pushes a target, without pushing a target).
Non-martial is magic and magic doesn't apply to this as it is not bound by physics at all.
Please explain Beastbane, a completely mundane item that generates a cloud of smoke that Slides all beasts in the zone without exerting any kind of force. And attacks Will.
I'll try to predict your answer: total silence or "well it's obviously magical".
Epic Dungeon Master Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen! Your Kingdom awaits!Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 11, 2011 - 2:23AM
#1466
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>The Non-combat systems in 4e are as strong as they are in PF. And PF isn't outselling 4e. 4e has lead ICv2 for more quarters than PF has been around. Prove me otherwise.
Nope. Skill challenges do not work. Hence the largest non-combat element of 4e fails. One of many reasons why roleplay in 4e fails.
And since I keep talking about the combat, it's not good. It's slow, cumbersome, crunchy and dull. Having it doesn't improve the game at all.
And that's not what the evidence shows. Pathfinder is beating 4e. Suck it up.
You have one source of debated evidence supporting the claim that PF is outselling 4e dnd. One. How many quarters does that source show that result?
Oh, and how many people are using DDI, and subsequently buying fewer books? That's right, you don't know.
But I'll tell you what we do know. That one source you have, doesn't show PF outselling 4e by a large margin. That means that with the large sub base of DDI, what little evidence we have suggest that 4e is more popular than PF.
Suck it up.
And Skill Challenges work. You're wrong.
And the combat in 4e is fantastic. It is smooth, intuitive and engaging. Your talking out of your butt.
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
I could say anything in D&D is silly though, because it's a silly game and we are silly people.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 11, 2011 - 2:28AM
#1467
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Date Joined:
Jan 27, 2008
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Whenever you have to describe things in D&D as a mechanical game effect - its fail.
You mean like saying a Bandit doesn't die when my Fighter delivers his 1d8 +3 hit with his sword because, you know, as a mechanical game effect, the Bandit only lost some Hit Points while my Fighter's sword never actually hit the enemy?
Not the first time IN THIS THREAD he has said something that made no sense.
Everything that happens in a RPG is either fluff or a mechanical game effect, and its normally both.
There is the game effec for what just happened to the game state.
and gthe fluff for how htat translates into the games story.
Unfortunatly some people have issues seperating or merging the 2.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 11, 2011 - 2:52AM
#1468
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Date Joined:
Nov 15, 2007
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Once again PUSH is a mechanical term. It is used to describe MECHANICAL game effects. It does not precisely define the flavor or fluff of what is happening. The flavor of the example power you found does not say push.
Looks like you found a bad example.
Whenever you have to describe things in D&D as a mechanical game effect - its fail.
Then I guess the entire game going back to first edition is fail. Because EVERYTHING is a mechanical effect.
EDIT: Giving Cassan the benefit of the doubt I decided to go back to 2nd Edition and see how many Wizard spells didnt fail. The result was 101 spells had no mechanical game effect description. That's good. Of course that's out of 312 total spells.
SO without further set up here it is. The Cassan approved non fail Wizard spell list.
1st Level 14/45 Affect Normal Fires Alarm Cantrip Change Self Comprehend Languages Dancing Lights Detect Undead Mending Message Mount Read Magic Tenser's Floating Disc Unseen Servant Wall of Fog 2nd Level 12/43 Alter Self Continual Light Darkness Deeppockets Detect Invisibility Fog Cloud Knock Leomund's Trap Locate Object Rope Trick Whispering Wind Wizard Lock 3rd Level 10/36 Clairaudience Clairvoyance Delude Feign Death Gust of Wind Infravision Leomund's Tiny Hut Protection from Evil Shrink Item Water Breathing 4th Level 11/42 Hallucinatory Terrain Illusionary Wall Leomund's Secure Shelter Magic Mirror Massmorph Minor Creation Plant Growth Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer Solid Fog Vacancy Wizard Eye 5th Level 17/40 Airy Water Avoidance Contact Other Plane Distance Distortion Dream Fabricate Leomund's Secret Chest Magic Jar Major Creation Passwall Seeming Sending Stone Shape Teleport Transmute Rock to Mud Wall of Iron Wall of Stone 6th Level 11/40 Eyebite Glassee Lower Water Mirage Arcana Move Earth Project Image Reincarnation Repulsion Stone to Flesh Transmute Water to Dust Veil 7th Level 12/26 Charm Plants Drawmij's Instant Summons Forcecage Limited Wish Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion Phase Door Reverse Gravity Sequester Shadow Walk Spell Turning Statue Vanish 8th Level 6/22 Binding Clone Glassteel Maze Prismatic Wall Screen 9th Level 8/18 Astral Spell Crystalbrittle Foresight Gate Imprisonment Succor Temporal Stasis Weird
Because you like something, it does not mean it is good.
Because you dislike something, it does not mean it is bad.
Because it is your opinion, it does not make it everyone's opinion.
Because it is your opinion, it does not make it truth.
Because it is your opinion, it does not make it the general consensus.
Whatever side you want to take, at least remember these things.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 11, 2011 - 5:52AM
#1469
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2007
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Once again PUSH is a mechanical term. It is used to describe MECHANICAL game effects. It does not precisely define the flavor or fluff of what is happening. The flavor of the example power you found does not say push.
Looks like you found a bad example.
And by the way nice dodge.
Whenever you have to describe things in D&D as a mechanical game effect - its fail.
I dont get this. All editions of D&D are a game, and games have mechanics. If D&D didnt have mechanics it wouldnt be a game.
Without mechanical description we'd have no way to communicate what happens.
"I swing my sword at his head and narrowly miss him but follow up with a punch to the face."
Without any kind of mechanics the above description means nothing. Without the mechanics of dice we'd never know if that above line was a hit or miss since HP is abstract. We'd never know how much damage is dealt and we'd never know if anything else happened to the monster.
without mechanics we dont know what happens in the game.
So no, you dont fail when you describe things in a machanical fashion. Without it the words are just a random story that has nothing to do with D&D the game. Without knowing that the fighter had spent his last surge in order to get back up the description:
"He raised his head using every last ounce of strenght he had left in him to stand and face his foe again"
Doesnt mean anything in the game. sure it sounds nice but no one you would know that the fighter was just shy of negative bloodied and he rolled a 20 on his death save in order to spen a surge and get back into the fight.
Without mechanical descriptions we just have a bunch of stories without any kind of reference to how they actually worked.
 Never Point a loaded party at a plot you are not willing to shoot. Arcane Rhetoric. My Blog.
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1 year ago ::
Dec 11, 2011 - 6:01AM
#1470
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Once again PUSH is a mechanical term. It is used to describe MECHANICAL game effects. It does not precisely define the flavor or fluff of what is happening. The flavor of the example power you found does not say push.
Looks like you found a bad example.
Whenever you have to describe things in D&D as a mechanical game effect - its fail.
Then I guess the entire game going back to first edition is fail. Because EVERYTHING is a mechanical effect.
EDIT: Giving Cassan the benefit of the doubt I decided to go back to 2nd Edition and see how many Wizard spells didnt fail. The result was 101 spells had no mechanical game effect description. That's good. Of course that's out of 312 total spells.
SO without further set up here it is. The Cassan approved non fail Wizard spell list.
1st Level 14/45
Affect Normal Fires
Alarm
Cantrip
Change Self
Comprehend Languages
Dancing Lights
Detect Undead
Mending
Message
Mount
Read Magic
Tenser's Floating Disc
Unseen Servant
Wall of Fog
2nd Level 12/43
Alter Self
Continual Light
Darkness
Deeppockets
Detect Invisibility
Fog Cloud
Knock
Leomund's Trap
Locate Object
Rope Trick
Whispering Wind
Wizard Lock
3rd Level 10/36
Clairaudience
Clairvoyance
Delude
Feign Death
Gust of Wind
Infravision
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Protection from Evil
Shrink Item
Water Breathing
4th Level 11/42
Hallucinatory Terrain
Illusionary Wall
Leomund's Secure Shelter
Magic Mirror
Massmorph
Minor Creation
Plant Growth
Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer
Solid Fog
Vacancy
Wizard Eye
5th Level 17/40
Airy Water
Avoidance
Contact Other Plane
Distance Distortion
Dream
Fabricate
Leomund's Secret Chest
Magic Jar
Major Creation
Passwall
Seeming
Sending
Stone Shape
Teleport
Transmute Rock to Mud
Wall of Iron
Wall of Stone
6th Level 11/40
Eyebite
Glassee
Lower Water
Mirage Arcana
Move Earth
Project Image
Reincarnation
Repulsion
Stone to Flesh
Transmute Water to Dust
Veil
7th Level 12/26
Charm Plants
Drawmij's Instant Summons
Forcecage
Limited Wish
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Phase Door
Reverse Gravity
Sequester
Shadow Walk
Spell Turning
Statue
Vanish
8th Level 6/22
Binding
Clone
Glassteel
Maze
Prismatic Wall
Screen
9th Level 8/18
Astral Spell
Crystalbrittle
Foresight
Gate
Imprisonment
Succor
Temporal Stasis
Weird
Awww you are making me reminisce of when D&D was D&D...
If only we could modernize it we would have 5e !
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