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2 years ago ::
Nov 09, 2011 - 10:11AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Feb 10, 2009
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Some people have claimed that 4th edition doesn't have a D&D feel of the previous editions (I don't personally feel so). I would like to hear from people who do, what is the cause of this feeling, i.e. what in 4e causes it. Could that feeling be restored without sacrificing class balance and lots of customization options in all classes?
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2 years ago ::
Nov 09, 2011 - 10:16AM
#2
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At a convention last month, I played a session of 2E where we were playing lv0 villagers without high stats or any abilities. Since mechanically there was nothing we did well, we had to improvise.
In 4E the things your character can do through powers, skills and feats are very interesting, enough that you can enjoy playing solely using them.
I'm not saying either is right or wrong, just different. In 2E you improvised because you had to, in 4E your character is powerful and interesting enough that you don't.
...whatever
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2 years ago ::
Nov 09, 2011 - 10:30AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Oct 21, 2011
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4e is just a different game, a more tactical game. The feeling that I miss from older editions is the sudden immersion into danger, personal danger, experienced through my character.
This is my opinion - the following tl;dr section is an explanation:
In older versions, combat would almost always begin suddenly and the first round of combat would commence immediately. The DM would often call on you to make sudden rolls; "Roll suprise!", "Roll initiative!1", or worse - "Roll a saving throw vs. death!" Now, I think the actual percentage chance of sudden death was bad in older editions - for a first level character this chance could be as high as 75% saving throw failure or so BUT I do like the sudden confrontation of danger - and to be clear, this was the MOST COMMON way a combat or dangerous encounter would begin - suddenly and then go straight into player actions.
Now, it is true that 4e CAN work the same way, but more often than not a combat encounter begins with the DM setting up a battle-mat, drawing a combat area, placing minis or tokens or whatever and this all gives the players ample time to work out what they are gonna do and how they are gonna use their powers and position themselves etc. The 4e game is more tactical than "personal adventure" oriented and the birds-eye view of the battlefield and the combat powers all reinforce this.
What I really miss is when the DM would say something like, "As you work you way across the flooded cavern, a bloated hand bursts from the water and grips your wrist! Roll initiative." AND then you go straight into the first round of combat. This just doesn't happen very often in 4e.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 09, 2011 - 10:31AM
#4
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I just started a new group of people on 4e last night. They are all people that have played some version of D&D before (a couple of them have played a lot of AD&D). My solution is to simply emphasize the fact that the rules are open-ended. I tell them about "page 42" and explain that their powers are likely to be a reliable solution for the average situation most of the time, but that they might work in slightly different ways etc if they can come up with some narrative that explains why or they can use them with stunts etc.
The other thing you really have to do with 4e is understand that unlike some games it is not a 'recipe' type of system. It doesn't hand you a 'creative solution' to every problem, instead it gives you loads of really solid ways to handle anything you want to make up. So it is a bit different, but you pretty much get the 'feel' you're looking for by throwing lots of creative stuff at the PCs. Go crazy. Have all sorts of weird stuff come up. Curses and strange rituals and whacky effects etc etc etc. Just go crazy. Really. The beauty of it is that the whole system can handle almost any bizarre thing you decide to have happen. If it is good story then it works.
There are going to be some things that WILL probably feel different because 4e PCs are just more capable in general. That is they always have SOME options. You don't get that AD&D kind of "we're hosed no matter what we do" kind of situations so often.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
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2 years ago ::
Nov 09, 2011 - 10:37AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jan 27, 2010
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I think 4e presents it's material in a completely different way. For that reason, it took me a while to completely ignore the default style of play and revert back to my old ways. Only once I did that did the game start to feel like D&D again.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 09, 2011 - 10:39AM
#6
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Date Joined:
May 13, 2009
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It depends for a big part on what you thought was "key" to something being called D&D.
I never really noticed the change; the new version had high fantasy, it had roleplaying, you were a hero and you beat up loads of monsters while raking in treasure. It was just easier on me (the DM) so I loved it. I didn't miss anything.
Epic Dungeon Master Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen! Your Kingdom awaits!Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 09, 2011 - 10:47AM
#7
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Well, I have noticed a different feel, and it's a feel that I somewhat don't like. So I put alot of thought into it, into what exactly is creating this different "feel" so that I could change it and truely enjoy this new edition. Being an immersion player, I looked at the roleplay/adventrue aspect, which is my priority in a d&d game, and 4e does NOTHING to hinder Roleplay. I looked at the mechanics, sure it's vastly different, but I thought that it was different in a good way. The mechanics definitly give out a feel, but not a negative one that I was feeling.
One evening when playing with my group, it hit me: It's not the game, it's my group, it's the players. I've noticed that my group had become very gamist and that, due to the co-operative nature of the game, it brought out the min/maxer in a bit on my fellow players since they wanted to be their best to not let the team down. The same happened to my DM (who's run 3.5 for 8 years), but to a lesser extent: I sometimes feel that he enjoys making interesting encounters over an interesting story, not to a large extent but enough to be noticable. I'm the only person at my table who roleplay's in combat: instead of saying "I play this power", I say the fluff I've created and then make the rolls and add the extra effects. I only started this a few months ago and was really hoping that it would rub off on other players as well, but it hasn't.
Long story short: It's the players at my group that are causing the feel that I dislike, not the game itself.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 09, 2011 - 11:03AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Feb 10, 2009
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One evening when playing with my group, it hit me: It's not the game, it's my group, it's the players. I've noticed that my group had become very gamist and that, due to the co-operative nature of the game, it brought out the min/maxer in a bit on my fellow players since they wanted to be their best to not let the team down. The same happened to my DM (who's run 3.5 for 8 years), but to a lesser extent: I sometimes feel that he enjoys making interesting encounters over an interesting story, not to a large extent but enough to be noticable. I'm the only person at my table who roleplay's in combat: instead of saying "I play this power", I say the fluff I've created and then make the rolls and add the extra effects. I only started this a few months ago and was really hoping that it would rub off on other players as well, but it hasn't.
We have a house rule that you get the feat bonus to attack rolls from expertise feat (which you get for free) only if you describe how you use a power or what it looks like. This has resulted in everyone describing their attacks almost all the time. At-Will powers are free from this rule, though, since describing them would get quite repetitive.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 09, 2011 - 11:12AM
#9
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One of the things that I really like about 4e is that it doesn't feel like the earlier games. I call 4e D&D 're-imagined'. For the first time in a very long time, the game (and the lore of the game) feels fresh to me.
For instance, I love the World Axis cosmology; it's more fantastic in my mind than the quasi-SF Great Wheel ever was. I enjoy following game lore from edition to edition, how stories and iconic NPCs evolove from game to game. I enjoy how devas have been re-imagined this time around for instance.
In short, I like the fact that 4e doesn't feel like the games that came before.
= = =
That being said, one of the things that I like about Essentials is this: Heroes of the Fallen Lands presents 'classic' races and classes (dwarves, eladrin/elves, and halflings, clerics, fighters, rogues and wizards). That book, taken by itself, feels very 'back to basics' to me. I can then take Heroes of the Forgoten Kingdoms (the next book) and add drow, half-elves, and half-orcs; druids, paladins and rangers. That book feels very 2nd edition to me.
Martial characters use basic attacks in DDE rather than martial exploits (spells my any other name IMO), and that appeals to me.
= = =
So, right now, 4e is solid I think. There is stuff that appeals to different kinds of players. If you like the origiinal 4e approach, use the PH series; or if you like an old-school approach use the DDE stuff; OR mix 'n' match. It's all good.
/\ Art
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2 years ago ::
Nov 09, 2011 - 11:13AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jan 27, 2010
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Long story short: It's the players at my group that are causing the feel that I dislike, not the game itself.
and that is due to the default gamist style that 4e encourages. The game gives off that impression and players tend to play that way.
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