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Nov 8, 2011 -- 6:42AM, Metafictional wrote:

Dying (I mean, dying is an effect, right?)...? 

Probably, but I think any DM would just say it instantly reapplies if you're still below 0

or it stops you from making death saving throws (meaning you wouldn't get another HR, or even the normal roll-20-and-heal), but you'd still be killed by going negative bloodied

yeh, by RAW a non revanent could *maybe* (with some seriously generous interpretation) use this to get rid of unconcious and dying without healing, but why would you want to (as stated, you die at negative bloodied whatever happens)?

A Revenant can end the daze, but there's plenty of other ways to do that anyway (Superior Will for one, I think there was a CS response that 'confirmed' that), and I don't think Dying has any other negative effects for them once they can no longer fail death saves

Too bad LDB's not around any more. I'd love to hear his take on the Berserker.

Thing I just realized:
You can now multiclass bard and get 3 feats for the price of 2 by taking Multiclass Mastery!

...not saying that that's actually a good idea, but previously there were only 2 Multiclass Bard feats available (unless you went PMC, but who would?), rendering the idea moot.

You could do it before. Here's 3 different ways how:

a) Traveler's Harlequin
b) Retrain Bard MC to Multiclass Mastery (Bard MC, +1)
c) Take Adept, Novice, Acolyte power (which are multiclass feats, they're just not class-specific multiclass feats).

Nov 8, 2011 -- 1:39PM, psk20 wrote:

You could do it before. Here's 3 different ways how:
a) Traveler's Harlequin
b) Retrain Bard MC to Multiclass Mastery (Bard MC, +1)
c) Take Adept, Novice, Acolyte power (which are multiclass feats, they're just not class-specific multiclass feats).

A and C I'll grant, but B is ridiculous.

Why? Based on personal incredulity alone?

Nov 8, 2011 -- 1:50PM, psk20 wrote:

Why? Based on personal incredulity alone?

No, because you can't retrain an MC feat that you used to qualify for a feat, PP, or ED that you would keep after your retraining. If you retrain out of being a bard, you cannot take then a feat that requires you to be a bard, even if that feat makes you a bard.

Nov 8, 2011 -- 1:33PM, The_Great_Gray_Skwid wrote:

Thing I just realized:
You can now multiclass bard and get 3 feats for the price of 2 by taking Multiclass Mastery!

...not saying that that's actually a good idea, but previously there were only 2 Multiclass Bard feats available (unless you went PMC, but who would?), rendering the idea moot.

Note that you can also do this to get 2 power swap feats for the price of 1 (as power swap feats have the Multiclass designator).

Nov 8, 2011 -- 2:25PM, The_Great_Gray_Skwid wrote:

Nov 8, 2011 -- 1:50PM, psk20 wrote:

Why? Based on personal incredulity alone?

No, because you can't retrain an MC feat that you used to qualify for a feat, PP, or ED that you would keep after your retraining. If you retrain out of being a bard, you cannot take then a feat that requires you to be a bard, even if that feat makes you a bard.

But you don't stop being a bard at any stage. You retrained being a bard for... being a bard. What makes you think you can't do this?

Are you saying that if you had Bardic Ritualist and acolyte power, you couldn't retrain Bardic Ritualist to Bardic Dilettante?

Even if what you're saying held weight, which I don't think it does, you could still get around it with some fairly convoluted multiclassing.

At 20 you have Bardic Ritualist.
21: Pick up Multiclass Mastery (+1, Bardic Dilettante).
22: Retrain away Bardic Ritualist.

Even if you think what I said before doesn't fly (and I think it does), the above clearly works.

Nov 8, 2011 -- 2:43PM, psk20 wrote:

Nov 8, 2011 -- 2:25PM, The_Great_Gray_Skwid wrote:

Nov 8, 2011 -- 1:50PM, psk20 wrote:

Why? Based on personal incredulity alone?

No, because you can't retrain an MC feat that you used to qualify for a feat, PP, or ED that you would keep after your retraining. If you retrain out of being a bard, you cannot take then a feat that requires you to be a bard, even if that feat makes you a bard.

But you don't stop being a bard at any stage. You retrained being a bard for... being a bard. What makes you think you can't do this?

Are you saying that if you had Bardic Ritualist and acolyte power, you couldn't retrain Bardic Ritualist to Bardic Dilettante?

Even if what you're saying held weight, which I don't think it does, you could still get around it with some fairly convoluted multiclassing.

At 20 you have Bardic Ritualist.
21: Pick up Multiclass Mastery (+1, Bardic Dilettante).
22: Retrain away Bardic Ritualist.

Even if you think what I said before doesn't fly (and I think it does), the above clearly works.

The second works, the above doesn't, because before you get the Bard MC feat from Multiclass Mastery, you need to be a Bard – and the moment you retrain your only Bard MC feat for Multiclass Mastery, you stop being a Bard (but BEFORE you start being a Multiclass Mastery Bard and something else).

But the second way certainly works. You could even retrain Bardic Ritualist away at 21st, I believe, just not for Multiclass Mastery, if retraining happens AFTER native feat and power choices for the level (which I think it does, though I am not 100% certain).

Nov 8, 2011 -- 11:36AM, Brandark wrote:

Too bad LDB's not around any more. I'd love to hear his take on the Berserker.

Indeed. I think he would really like the Berserker. I think he'd agree that the Berserker is like the Knight or the Slayer, in that you can't really compare it to its original very well because they both fit a different need. And the berserker (as AWESOME as it looks) fits a completely new role, so it's difficult to judge how good or bad it is. 

From what I can tell it does it's job well  in both categories. It would have been nice if the striker mechanic was front loading.... but it's still better then what it was, and... this brings a new question.

I know the Berserker is AEDU format, but I also know that the Berserker's Paragon path gives you 2 ride along powers that you can apply to any attack you make, are there other encounter or daily powers in the new repetoire that can be used with an at-will or MBA that are ridealong? 

I'm currently brainstorming a Berserker build, with an emphasis on being a defender.  I'm not necessarily trying to get a build set in stone just yet, but rather to spark a discussion of the various options.

Race:  So far the top contenders are Mul (extra surge and Con bump will keep him fighting longer), Longtooth Shifter (Wis bump lets me easily qualify for Battle Awareness and keep a positive Con modifer, racial power supports boosts toughness and damage), or Human (extra feat + Heroic Effort will be very useful, but ability scores will be tough to juggle since I want decent Con and Wis, unless I forego Battle Awareness; perhaps the extra feat can be used to pick up Durable?).  Another possiblity is Dragonborn, and if that's the case I might go for Skald M/C instead of Battle Awareness, but at that point I might be watering down the roles too much.  Maybe Ranger would be a better choice since it doesn't require Wis.  Glorious Victory is a tempting feat for a Dragonborn Berserker.  In any case, Dragon Breath and the increased surge value would serve this build well.  Of these 4 races, I'm least partial to the Mul despite the fact that it patches the Berserker's low # of surges.

I'll say right now that even though Half Orcs and Thri-Kreens are probably most optimal (Str and Dex boosts), I don't like either race so that's out.  Dwarf is not surprisingly a very strong choice as well, but I usually go Dwarf for my melee guys and I'm a little sick of it.  I'd also really prefer a heavy blade, and it's just too tempting to wield a hammer as a Dwarf.

Feats:  I have a long list of good feats, and I'm not really sure how to prioritize them.  I'll start off with the class feat Berserk Vitality.  Even if I'm emphasizing defender, I'll almost certainly enter a Fury about halfway to 2/3 through any given encounter.  The fact that I'll get a surge's worth of THP when doing so will go a long way toward mitigating the low # of surges.  Heavy Shield Proficiency will be a no-brainer (obviously I'm leaning toward making a Temperate Lands Berserker), and I feel like it would be advantageous to pick it up early.  Battle Awareness would be tough to pass up since it gives you a free attack, but it also requires 13 Wis which takes stat points away from Con.  It's probably worth it in the end, especially considering that there's always Durable.  I generally don't like prioritizing Durable though, and I think Berserk Vitality would provide a better benefit anyways.  Bastard Sword Proficiency is something that's usually taken pretty early, but I can't help thinking that a lot of other feats are more important.  Heavy Blade Expertise should certainly come first, since accuracy is more valuable than increasing the damage die of a weapon by 1 step.  And then Weapon Focus and Improved Defenses are pretty standard fare, but they would probably have to wait.  World Serpent's Grasp is also awfully tempting given the Berserker's at-will slowing capabilities.  Prone would be a nice addition to your already impressive Vengeful Guardian attacks.

I'm thinking that picking up Berserk Vitality and increasing AC (through Unarmored Agility or Heavy Shield Proficiency) will be important for most Berserkers, and everything else in Heroic tier can probably go towards boosting offense.  Improved Defenses might be preferable to the Superior defense feats, since it saves more room for offensive options (allowing you to support both roles more easily).  Besides, it'll be tough to qualify for Superior Will.  Would it be worth it to tank Con to try though?

Powers:  I'm personally leaning toward Run Down and Stalk & Strike as my 2 at-wills.  I thought about Pressing Strike for an at-will method to trigger Fury, but the more I think about it the less I think it's necessary.  Besides, Pressing Strike will deal less damage than Stalk & Strike while in Fury, and Pressing Strike will be unuseable if you don't want to Fury.  Also notable is the fact that the old standby Howling Strike is obsolete for Berserkers, since they get striker damage baked into their MBAs while in a Fury.  It's nice that you don't need to choose a specific at-will just to make sure your charging is up to par. 

For this type of build that emphasizes defender a little more strongly I'm thinking of keeping 1 Primal encounter power to trigger Fury with the rest being Martial (at least through Heroic).  Honestly, most of the Primal encounter powers are pretty unimpressive until you get to level 7 anyways.  I think this basic pattern would change in Paragon when more off-turn and multi-attack powers are available.  Even with a defender focus you can get by pretty easily using Run Down + WSG and not miss defender encounter powers all that much (after all, look at the Knight's, which are pretty much just extra [W] damage).  The Berserker's Defender Aura and Vengeful Guardian are solid enough defender mechanics that you don't really need much support from your powers, unlike a Warden or Battlemind, for example. 

My tentative plan for dailies would be to pick up Rage of the Crimson Hurricane at level 5, but otherwise stick with defender dailies (at least in Heroic; I haven't really looked at rages for paragon and beyond).  I can easily see myself going all-out striker right from the start about once per day, if for no other reason than to bask in the change of playstyle.  This rage will stack damage on top of the striker damage provided by Fury, making it a great choice for when I really want to tear things up. 

For utilities I tentatively have a defensive and offensive option picked out at levels 2 and 6.  Feral Rejuvenation or Savage Growl at 2, and Relentless Surge or Cull Weakness at 6.  Feral Rejuvenation + Cull Weakness would probably be my best bet (Cull Weakness being a new stance that gives me CA and +4 damage vs bloodied enemies, which would just be another buff to stack on top of Rage of the Crimson Hurricane and Fury damage). 

Nov 8, 2011 -- 3:23PM, Dragvandil13 wrote:

I know the Berserker is AEDU format, but I also know that the Berserker's Paragon path gives you 2 ride along powers that you can apply to any attack you make, are there other encounter or daily powers in the new repetoire that can be used with an at-will or MBA that are ridealong? 

 Nope, they're all standard actions.

Nov 8, 2011 -- 3:23PM, Dragvandil13 wrote:

Nov 8, 2011 -- 11:36AM, Brandark wrote:

Too bad LDB's not around any more. I'd love to hear his take on the Berserker.

Indeed. I think he would really like the Berserker. I think he'd agree that the Berserker is like the Knight or the Slayer, in that you can't really compare it to its original very well because they both fit a different need. And the berserker (as AWESOME as it looks) fits a completely new role, so it's difficult to judge how good or bad it is. 

From what I can tell it does it's job well  in both categories. It would have been nice if the striker mechanic was front loading.... but it's still better then what it was, and... this brings a new question.

I know the Berserker is AEDU format, but I also know that the Berserker's Paragon path gives you 2 ride along powers that you can apply to any attack you make, are there other encounter or daily powers in the new repetoire that can be used with an at-will or MBA that are ridealong? 

Whoa, thanks for causing me to flip to the Deadly Berserker page just now.  I just realized that its powers do not trigger Fury, because Fury is only triggered when you use a Barbarian Primal attack power!  This makes these powers equally useful regardless of whether or not you're in a Fury.  Neato!

To answer your question, no there are no ride-along powers for the Berserkers outside of its PP.  Which is kind of unfortunate, actually.  Hopefully they'll get some in a Dragon article or something; I understand that space was obviously limited in the book, but it would be really nice to eventually get more Martial Barbarian powers at some point anyways.

EDIT:  Ninja'd

Is there any way to get Berserker stuff on a hybrid of any sort?

Nov 7, 2011 -- 6:53PM, alien270 wrote:

Tuathan Animal Shape is a 2nd level at-will utility power that does basically what it says.  Each level gives you a choice of 2 different utility powers, but that one is the most iconic for the theme.  Other utilities offer stuff that is basically all over the map, some of which is good and some of which is pretty crappy.  I get the sense that the designers intended most people who take this theme to actually pick some of the utility powers (Tuathan Animal Shape at the very least).

Actually, the reason to take the theme is the 2nd level utility that gives you Dice of Auspicious Fortune as a power....

Nov 8, 2011 -- 4:51PM, IxidorRS wrote:

Is there any way to get Berserker stuff on a hybrid of any sort?

No, since there aren't any feats in HotF that let you swap out Barbarian features for the Berserker stuff.

Nov 8, 2011 -- 5:17PM, Litigation wrote:

Nov 8, 2011 -- 4:51PM, IxidorRS wrote:

Is there any way to get Berserker stuff on a hybrid of any sort?

No, since there aren't any feats in HotF that let you swap out Barbarian features for the Berserker stuff.

Thanks! I feared this as not really any of the features felt very good for those kind of swap-out feats. It would be nice to see it added to Hybrid Talent somewhere down the line or given a seperate Hybrid option, but I won't hold my breath.

I actually didnt know they didnt, but that is good to know. =D

I'm not going to quote you, because it's a long and I dont want to waste space. (Shame we dont get more ride alongs. Ahwell.)

Race wise things look good. Goliath is another solid option, if memory serves they get +2 con or Wis now but its still a good thing if I am wrong. And the racial encounter is pretty nifty for a defender in a pinch. I am going human, and I actually might take 3 at-will powers here, there are a LOT of good powers here.


A new question has been raised, do the attacks we get from our aura count as Oppertunity attacks? Beacuse there are 2 or 3 nifty little feats for us if that's the case (Blade Oppertunist, Heavy Blade Oppertunity and sweeping blade.) True, they would be a lot more geared towards our defender role, butwe can afford a feat t obuff our defender now and then (besides the option we get from HotFW, it's not like we have a lot of class feats anyways.)  

Feats are interesting, there is a lot to fit in at heroic, but Paragon and Epic get kinda sparse (at least from what I am looking at.) I'm going Prof, MC, Class, Heavy Shield, expertise, and focus. 

 

For those Berserkers who give a bit of lip-service to Charisma, is Squire of Righteousness worth it? Having a 1/encounter variant option against those who violate your Aura (Righteous Radiance) seems at least worth considering. Skill trainings are always good, but I'm not sure the Holy Symbol proficiency has any real value to a Berserker...

Nov 8, 2011 -- 6:05PM, Dragvandil13 wrote:

I actually didnt know they didnt, but that is good to know. =D

I'm not going to quote you, because it's a long and I dont want to waste space. (Shame we dont get more ride alongs. Ahwell.)

Race wise things look good. Goliath is another solid option, if memory serves they get +2 con or Wis now but its still a good thing if I am wrong. And the racial encounter is pretty nifty for a defender in a pinch. I am going human, and I actually might take 3 at-will powers here, there are a LOT of good powers here.


A new question has been raised, do the attacks we get from our aura count as Oppertunity attacks? Beacuse there are 2 or 3 nifty little feats for us if that's the case (Blade Oppertunist, Heavy Blade Oppertunity and sweeping blade.) True, they would be a lot more geared towards our defender role, butwe can afford a feat t obuff our defender now and then (besides the option we get from HotFW, it's not like we have a lot of class feats anyways.)  

Feats are interesting, there is a lot to fit in at heroic, but Paragon and Epic get kinda sparse (at least from what I am looking at.) I'm going Prof, MC, Class, Heavy Shield, expertise, and focus. 

 

The Vengeful Guardian power, which is the power granting the aura attack, is an opportunity action whose Effect line begins, "You make a basic melee attack..." does that count as an opportuniy attack?

Nov 8, 2011 -- 6:31PM, JohnduBois wrote:

Nov 8, 2011 -- 6:05PM, Dragvandil13 wrote:

I actually didnt know they didnt, but that is good to know. =D

I'm not going to quote you, because it's a long and I dont want to waste space. (Shame we dont get more ride alongs. Ahwell.)

Race wise things look good. Goliath is another solid option, if memory serves they get +2 con or Wis now but its still a good thing if I am wrong. And the racial encounter is pretty nifty for a defender in a pinch. I am going human, and I actually might take 3 at-will powers here, there are a LOT of good powers here.


A new question has been raised, do the attacks we get from our aura count as Oppertunity attacks? Beacuse there are 2 or 3 nifty little feats for us if that's the case (Blade Oppertunist, Heavy Blade Oppertunity and sweeping blade.) True, they would be a lot more geared towards our defender role, butwe can afford a feat t obuff our defender now and then (besides the option we get from HotFW, it's not like we have a lot of class feats anyways.)  

Feats are interesting, there is a lot to fit in at heroic, but Paragon and Epic get kinda sparse (at least from what I am looking at.) I'm going Prof, MC, Class, Heavy Shield, expertise, and focus. 

 

The Vengeful Guardian power, which is the power granting the aura attack, is an opportunity action whose Effect line begins, "You make a basic melee attack..." does that count as an opportuniy attack?

No, Opportunity Attack is a specific type of Opportunity Action.  Vengeful Guardian is a different specific type of Opportunity Action. 

Some of the OA boosting feats are still worthwhile though, for a couple of reasons.  The first is that if enemies know they'll get smacked for shifting, they might as well just get smacked for moving instead if they really want to get away.  At least then they can cover more distance.  Second is that you'll want strong OAs to be a significant threat even if you're in a Fury, when you won't have Vengeful Guardian.  Plus there's the random conditional benefits like when ranged enemies are adjacent to you and decide it's worthwhile to provoke instead of using a crappy melee attack. 

Nov 8, 2011 -- 7:31PM, alien270 wrote:

Nov 8, 2011 -- 6:31PM, JohnduBois wrote:

Nov 8, 2011 -- 6:05PM, Dragvandil13 wrote:

I actually didnt know they didnt, but that is good to know. =D

I'm not going to quote you, because it's a long and I dont want to waste space. (Shame we dont get more ride alongs. Ahwell.)

Race wise things look good. Goliath is another solid option, if memory serves they get +2 con or Wis now but its still a good thing if I am wrong. And the racial encounter is pretty nifty for a defender in a pinch. I am going human, and I actually might take 3 at-will powers here, there are a LOT of good powers here.


A new question has been raised, do the attacks we get from our aura count as Oppertunity attacks? Beacuse there are 2 or 3 nifty little feats for us if that's the case (Blade Oppertunist, Heavy Blade Oppertunity and sweeping blade.) True, they would be a lot more geared towards our defender role, butwe can afford a feat t obuff our defender now and then (besides the option we get from HotFW, it's not like we have a lot of class feats anyways.)  

Feats are interesting, there is a lot to fit in at heroic, but Paragon and Epic get kinda sparse (at least from what I am looking at.) I'm going Prof, MC, Class, Heavy Shield, expertise, and focus. 

 

The Vengeful Guardian power, which is the power granting the aura attack, is an opportunity action whose Effect line begins, "You make a basic melee attack..." does that count as an opportuniy attack?

No, Opportunity Attack is a specific type of Opportunity Action.  Vengeful Guardian is a different specific type of Opportunity Action. 

Some of the OA boosting feats are still worthwhile though, for a couple of reasons.  The first is that if enemies know they'll get smacked for shifting, they might as well just get smacked for moving instead if they really want to get away.  At least then they can cover more distance.  Second is that you'll want strong OAs to be a significant threat even if you're in a Fury, when you won't have Vengeful Guardian.  Plus there's the random conditional benefits like when ranged enemies are adjacent to you and decide it's worthwhile to provoke instead of using a crappy melee attack. 

Good to know, and I'll keep a space or 2 open for upgrading it. 

Edit: What with now being 6 days or so away from my copy of HotFW, and with a much anticipated (by me) episode of Sons of Anarchy on the way my brain is kinda frazzled. Is there a particular rage you are thinking of?

Nov 8, 2011 -- 8:22PM, Dragvandil13 wrote:

Edit: What with now being 6 days or so away from my copy of HotFW, and with a much anticipated (by me) episode of Sons of Anarchy on the way my brain is kinda frazzled. Is there a particular rage you are thinking of?

I was looking at Rage of the Crimson Hurricane from Primal Power (it's level 5).  It's the one that lets you deal Str mod damage to each enemy adjacent to you whenever you hit w/ a Primal melee power. 

During my big "striker encounter" I'd be looking at extra damage equal to Str mod (rage) + 1d8 (Fury) + 2 (if Longtooth Shifter, which I'm leaning toward) + 4 (vs bloodied from Cull Weakness, plus free CA) by level 6 (total 1d8+6 or 1d8+10 vs bloodied).  I'm sure you could rack up some more conditional buffs if you tried as well.

Nov 8, 2011 -- 6:28PM, Backlash3906 wrote:

For those Berserkers who give a bit of lip-service to Charisma, is Squire of Righteousness worth it? Having a 1/encounter variant option against those who violate your Aura (Righteous Radiance) seems at least worth considering. Skill trainings are always good, but I'm not sure the Holy Symbol proficiency has any real value to a Berserker...

If it had an effect other than damage, then I'd say it might be good ... since it's only damage, you're better off swining with your buffed MBA to punish.

You also alrady have a Defender's Aura, so that part is redundant.

You'd really be better off taking a Fighter MC feat, or a second Striker MC.

Nov 8, 2011 -- 6:28PM, Backlash3906 wrote:

For those Berserkers who give a bit of lip-service to Charisma, is Squire of Righteousness worth it? Having a 1/encounter variant option against those who violate your Aura (Righteous Radiance) seems at least worth considering. Skill trainings are always good, but I'm not sure the Holy Symbol proficiency has any real value to a Berserker...

Hmmm....

Could you somehow use the paladin's defender aura with the barbarian's punishment (while if fury mode)?

Nov 9, 2011 -- 8:02AM, mellored wrote:

Nov 8, 2011 -- 6:28PM, Backlash3906 wrote:

For those Berserkers who give a bit of lip-service to Charisma, is Squire of Righteousness worth it? Having a 1/encounter variant option against those who violate your Aura (Righteous Radiance) seems at least worth considering. Skill trainings are always good, but I'm not sure the Holy Symbol proficiency has any real value to a Berserker...

Hmmm....

Could you somehow use the paladin's defender aura with the barbarian's punishment (while if fury mode)?

No, the first bullet point under Fury states "Your defender aura ends, if it was active, and you cannot use defender aura or vengeful guardian until the fury ends."

And, besides, it's the same exact power.  So it's not like you have Defender Aura (Berserker) and Defender Aura (Cavalier).  You just have Defender Aura.

I don't have my book with me so, off the top of my head, I don't recall if the power has a power source keyword (e.g. Martial), but if DA from berserker was Martial and DA from Cavalier was Divine, that'd be the only significance.  Are you manifesting it martially or divinely?  And I'm pretty sure it doesn't have that kind of keyword so even that's moot.

Going to start playing a gnoll berserker Thursday.  Not the most op race, but there were campaign theme restrictions in effect.  I'd say off the cuff that most op to least op of the op races for berserker are half-orc, human, goliath, dwarf in that order.  Half-Orc gets the best AC of the trio and the half-orc nova support.  Human gets better NADs and the option to take a primal at-will as an emergency killswitch.  Goliath can swing a 13 in both Con and Wis from level 1, opening up the best fighter MC feat right away.  Dwarves get silly feat support and minor action second wind.  Dwarf and Goliath are probably so close you could argue them flip-flopped.

Honorable mention to Dragonborn and Bugbear.  Bugbear would be pretty nice if they got something other than oversized weapons.  I'd say those two are still dark blue.

Thri-Kreen are on par with Half-Orcs (or a little behind in support.

I currently play a half-orc fighter/pit fighter lvl 15. Longsword and shield, str/wis with a solid dex as tertiary. He's the only defender in a group with a wizard, sorceror, rogue and str cleric. Would it be a good idea to try and rebuild this guy as a berserker once i get my paws on this book?

Nov 9, 2011 -- 9:25AM, Estlor wrote:

Going to start playing a gnoll berserker Thursday.  Not the most op race, but there were campaign theme restrictions in effect.  I'd say off the cuff that most op to least op of the op races for berserker are half-orc, human, goliath, dwarf in that order.  Half-Orc gets the best AC of the trio and the half-orc nova support.  Human gets better NADs and the option to take a primal at-will as an emergency killswitch.  Goliath can swing a 13 in both Con and Wis from level 1, opening up the best fighter MC feat right away.  Dwarves get silly feat support and minor action second wind.  Dwarf and Goliath are probably so close you could argue them flip-flopped.

Honorable mention to Dragonborn and Bugbear.  Bugbear would be pretty nice if they got something other than oversized weapons.  I'd say those two are still dark blue.

Any reason why you didn't list Longtooth Shifter, or did you just overlook them?  Wis is definitely useful for Battle Awareness, and Loongtooth Shifting seems like it would be superb on a Berserker (trigger THP after you're bloodied to get more mileage out of regen, without the risk of getting KO'd, not to mention the encounter long damage boost).  IMO they seem like a better choice than Dragonborn, or possibly even Goliaths.  Right now I think I've narrowed my build down to either LT Shifter or Human.

Nov 9, 2011 -- 10:53AM, jabblin wrote:

I currently play a half-orc fighter/pit fighter lvl 15. Longsword and shield, str/wis with a solid dex as tertiary. He's the only defender in a group with a wizard, sorceror, rogue and str cleric. Would it be a good idea to try and rebuild this guy as a berserker once i get my paws on this book?

If you want to keep the Wis focus and Pit Fighter PP then no, it probably wouldn't work all that well.  Berserkers want high Dex because their features encourage the use of light armor.  Also, that group might be a little too squishy to risk going into a Fury most of the time (though you're probably fine if that's a Staff Wizard, Dragon Sorc, and Brutal Rogue).

I haven't gotten a chance to play one yet, but as far as I can tell the Berserker seems perfectly capable of being the only defender in a group.  It has an at-will that slows, which opens up the possiblity of WSG spamming.  Its aura/punishment mechanic is very similar to the Knight's, and they've proven to be strong defenders.  Unlike the Knight, it also gets dailies that support the defender role, some of which look pretty spiffy (Eye of the Maelstrom, I'm looking at you).  In fact, I'd wager that the Berserker can be effective as a pure defender, a pure striker, or anywhere else along that spectrum.  The main difference between it and the Pit Fighter is that the Pit Fighter deals very good damage while simultaneously defending, whereas it's more of an off/on switch with the Berserker (who has other advantages over the Pit Fighter, like a slowing at-will, punishment as an OA instead of IA, etc.). 

Nov 9, 2011 -- 11:30AM, alien270 wrote:

Any reason why you didn't list Longtooth Shifter, or did you just overlook them?  Wis is definitely useful for Battle Awareness, and Loongtooth Shifting seems like it would be superb on a Berserker (trigger THP after you're bloodied to get more mileage out of regen, without the risk of getting KO'd, not to mention the encounter long damage boost).  IMO they seem like a better choice than Dragonborn, or possibly even Goliaths.  Right now I think I've narrowed my build down to either LT Shifter or Human.

Honestly, yes, just overlooked them.  Definitely better than Dragonborn.  Maybe Goliaths too, though I'd have to refresh my memory on what you get from Goliath Greatweapon Prowess.  Off the top of my head, I'd wager Longtooth Shifters make the better defender-oriented Berserker, Goliaths make the better striker-oriented Berserker.

Nov 9, 2011 -- 1:24PM, Estlor wrote:

Nov 9, 2011 -- 11:30AM, alien270 wrote:

Any reason why you didn't list Longtooth Shifter, or did you just overlook them?  Wis is definitely useful for Battle Awareness, and Loongtooth Shifting seems like it would be superb on a Berserker (trigger THP after you're bloodied to get more mileage out of regen, without the risk of getting KO'd, not to mention the encounter long damage boost).  IMO they seem like a better choice than Dragonborn, or possibly even Goliaths.  Right now I think I've narrowed my build down to either LT Shifter or Human.

Honestly, yes, just overlooked them.  Definitely better than Dragonborn.  Maybe Goliaths too, though I'd have to refresh my memory on what you get from Goliath Greatweapon Prowess.  Off the top of my head, I'd wager Longtooth Shifters make the better defender-oriented Berserker, Goliaths make the better striker-oriented Berserker.

I'm not sure that's necessarily true.  Goliaths are discouraged from picking up a superior weapon, and Goliath Greatweapon Prowess won't apply to Temperate Lands Berserkers who may very well emphasize the striker role (they'll have a damage advantage with low [W] powers, including charging, whereas Berserkers that wield 2-handers will outpace them with higher [W] powers and possibly when crit-fishing, but either way the difference will be minimal).  Whereas the Goliath's racial power is defensive in nature, the Shifter's arguably leans toward offense (the damage buff lasts until the end of the encounter, whereas the regen only applies when bloodied).  Shifters can also pick up Gorebrute Charge for more damage. 

There are also tricks with the shifters to get their regen/dmg booster before bloodied
 

Would a pixe Berserker with a war pick and say the feat to have allies grant partial cover while in the same square, along with being tiny and able to go through other creatures squares(a feat even makes this not provoke) be totally out there? seems like you could do quite a few shennannigans with a pixie not to mention how hilarious it would be?


lol, would also be funny if theres another defender that you can sit in his square and make enemys decide who they wanna get pummeled by if not aoe'ing.  Then, if you decide things are going smooth you can go ahead and rage with relative impunity inside the defenders square against anything without aoe or multi-attack as even if they do target you your ace is 2 better with cover and your defender gets to smack em.

A few Rage powers that let the Berserker keep up a bit of support tactics even while in their Fury:

Level 1 - Bloodseeker's Rage - Bloodied adjacent enemies that shift provoke OA's.
Level 1 - Life Thane Rage - Allies who start their turn within 3 of you gain THP equal to Cha-mod.

Level 9 - White Tiger Rage - Enemies that start their turn adjacent to you are slowed until the end of their turn.
Level 9 - Rage of the Death Spirit - As the first action of each of your turns, you can use a free action to mark each enemy within 2 squares of you until the end of your next turn. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls against enemies marked by you.
Level 9 - Rage of the Primal Banshee - Enemies can't charge any ally that is within a number of squares equal to your Cha-mod.

Level 15 - Rage of the War Bringer - Allies with LOS to you get a(n untyped) bonus to melee damage rolls equal to you Cha-mod.

Level 19 - Hydra Rage - Make an MBA as a free action when you make an attack that misses. (Remember the extra dice on MBA's when in your Fury. (: )
Level 19 - Desert Wind Rage - At the start of your turn, deal Str + 5 fire damage to all enemies within 5 of you.
Level 19 - Primal War Band Rage - Each enemy within 5 of you grants combat advantage.

Level 29 - World Serpent Rage - Like Bloodseeker's, but with more damage.

all good picks, and we still get the classics. 

Crimson Hurricane. *Smacks lips*

Oakhammer Rage (always nice to introduce some control to your slaps, extra damage in the form of your con mod if they are tired of getting their a$$e$ slapped to the ground.)

etc. etc.  

Well since no one else is asking, can we get a preview of the the best choice encounter powers at Heroic for Berserker?

Martial or Primal (ideally one of each.) 

Lessee, heroic attacks...

Martial Encounter
Level 1 - Batter Down - Melee, one creature, 2[W] + Str damage and knock prone.
Level 3 - Implacable Advance - Melee, one creature, 2[W] + Str damage and first time target moved before EoNT you can shift up to your speed to a square adjacent as free action.
Level 7 - Deny Escape - Melee, one creature, 2[W] + Str damage and immobilize until EoNT

Primal Encounter
Level 1 - Savage Cut - Melee, one creature, 2[W] + 1d8 + Str damage.
Level 3 - Thundering Smash - Melee, one creature, 2[W] + Str damage and enemies adjacent to target take 5 thunder damage (has the Thunder keyword)
Level 7 - Shattering Strike - Melee, one creature, 3[W] + Str damage, ignores insubstantial (has Force keyword)

Martial Daily
Level 1 - Sweeping Cut - Close Burst 1, enemies you can see in burst, 2[W] + Str damage and **** prone (miss half)
Level 5 - Dangerous Presence - Melee, one creature, 3[W] + Str damage (miss half), enemies in Defender Aura grant combat advantage until end of encounter
Level 9 - Eye of the Maelstrom - Melee, one creature, 3[W] + Str damage (miss half), defender aura increases to aura 2 and you can shift 1 before making attack granted by vengeful guardian (so you effectively get threatening reach)

Primal Daily
Level 1 - Life-Ending Strike - Melee, one creature, 4[W] + Str damage (miss half), can be used at end of a charge
Level 5 - Feral Rampage - Melee, one or two creatures, 3[W] + Str damage (miss half)
Level 9 - Wrath of the Storm - Melee, one creature, 4[W] + Str damage (miss half), push 4 and knock prone.

Book in hand, fire away.

Estlor, you are a God among men. =D

Hmm, it appears to have censored part of "and knock prone" above.  I wonder if I had a Freudian typo?

2 questions.

 Primal Daily
Level 1 - Life-Ending Strike - Melee, one creature, 4[W] + Str damage (miss half), can be used at end of a charge

Do you mean it can be used in place of an MBA, or do I just get to use it for free after a charge?


Level 5 - Feral Rampage - Melee, one or two creatures, 3[W] + Str damage (miss half)

is this a multi attacker, (I can choose one creature to hit with two swings of this, or I can choose to hit against 2 creatures.) Or just, "You can choose to hit someone else with this." 

@Dragvandil13: Life Ending Strike is in place of an MBA, Feral Rampage is not a multiattack, but you can shift your speed after the first attack.

I don't know if anyone spoiled this yet, but there is a level 6 skald encounter power, minor action, range 5, target you or an ally. Target can spend a surge and gain temp HP = their surge value. So basically it's like healing for the bloodied value or overhealing for a surge value. It's like virtue but you can target allies as well and it heals too. Very nice utility for that level IMO.

Ok so it does have "one target other then the primary"?

(shame, but not bad.) 

Nov 10, 2011 -- 2:05PM, Dragvandil13 wrote:

Ok so it does have "one target other then the primary"?

(shame, but not bad.) 

There's no shame in that! Surge to one and temps to another is still good, and versatile! (edit: I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing).

He means the barb power.  No, it's not a multiattack.  None of them are, the wording is clear.  Believe me, if there was one we would have spoiled it by now.

yeah I had cliked reply and gone off to clean cat diherea. i didnt see the shift in conversation.

Can't blame a guy for checking. =P And it's still a pretty awesome daily, 2 3w strikes for one power. Sweet! 

Here's a fun trick.

Take the Skald multiclass feat, to give yourself the aura 1/encounter. Then get the Corellon's Boon of Arcane Might boon, which give you

Property

Choose an at-will power from an arcane character class. You can use that power as an encounter power.



Choose one of the skald at-wills that give a benefit when you hit with a BA. Activate the skald aura, activate the skald at-will. This works for any class and race that makes BAs.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 5:35AM, TheAmnesiac wrote:

Here's a fun trick.

Take the Skald multiclass feat, to give yourself the aura 1/encounter. Then get the Corellon's Boon of Arcane Might boon, which give you

Property

Choose an at-will power from an arcane character class. You can use that power as an encounter power.



Choose one of the skald at-wills that give a benefit when you hit with a BA. Activate the skald aura, activate the skald at-will. This works for any class and race that makes BAs.

Yep, you could also do the same thing with a Half-Elf's Dilettante.  I think Skald M/C is going to be very, very popular.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 7:57AM, alien270 wrote:

Nov 11, 2011 -- 5:35AM, TheAmnesiac wrote:

Here's a fun trick.

Take the Skald multiclass feat, to give yourself the aura 1/encounter. Then get the Corellon's Boon of Arcane Might boon, which give you

Property

Choose an at-will power from an arcane character class. You can use that power as an encounter power.



Choose one of the skald at-wills that give a benefit when you hit with a BA. Activate the skald aura, activate the skald at-will. This works for any class and race that makes BAs.

Yep, you could also do the same thing with a Half-Elf's Dilettante.  I think Skald M/C is going to be very, very popular.

Skald M/C adds an 1/enc heal to the party that doesn't cost your standard action, and has no prerequisite(unlike the Shaman M/C feat that does the same). It'd be popular just for that.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 8:00AM, thecasualoblivion wrote:

Skald M/C adds an 1/enc heal to the party that doesn't cost your standard action, and has no prerequisite(unlike the Shaman M/C feat that does the same). It'd be popular just for that.

Yes, exactly.  Getting an encounter long buff from an at-will is just icing on the cake.

Played my gnoll berserker last night.

This was my first experience with the Defender Aura "marking" mechanism and I have to say it's pretty powerful in heroic tier.  The fact that you can punish both attacks and shifts turns you into a minion's worst nightmare and the fact that they just need to stand next to you to be under its effects really clogs up the middle of combat.

Between the gnoll's racial bonuses to damage, the temperate land heartland damage bonus, and Mr. Scruffy (my trained owlbear companion) with his aura I really felt like I was hitting hard the entire encounter, even while playing defender.  Because I took gnoll for flavor purposes, I couldn't go this route, but an AC of 21 on the defender at 1st level makes them nearly unhittable.

The rest of the party is a lazy archer warlord, an executioner, a dark pact warlock, and a vampire so we're not exactly the most optimal bunch of strikers and I realize I couldn't hang with the likes of a ranger or rogue, but when I flipped the switch to striker late in the encounter I totally outshined everyone.  I was dropping 2d8+12 (1[W] + 1d8 + 4 Str + 2 temperate + 2 pack attack +2 blood fury + 2 owlbear aura) attacks on people.  I can see them outpacing me in paragon and beyond, but in heroic you truly feel like you're now playing a striker.

Savage Cut is kind of a meh power in practice, but it does have the benefit of being an encounter power that carried daily amounts of [W] damage because of the bonus d8.  Stalk and Strike is amazing.  The shift 2 before the attack totally helps with positioning or shifting on difficult terrain.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 8:32AM, alien270 wrote:

Nov 11, 2011 -- 8:00AM, thecasualoblivion wrote:

Skald M/C adds an 1/enc heal to the party that doesn't cost your standard action, and has no prerequisite(unlike the Shaman M/C feat that does the same). It'd be popular just for that.

Yes, exactly.  Getting an encounter long buff from an at-will is just icing on the cake.

As much as I love this, it really seems like it needs erratta to be one daily aura, not one encounter aura/heal, to match up with every other MC leader feat.  It would still be pretty versatile in terms of action usage, and it would still be worth the tricks to get the buff 1 enc/day instead of all day.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 10:56AM, Estlor wrote:

Played my gnoll berserker last night.

This was my first experience with the Defender Aura "marking" mechanism and I have to say it's pretty powerful in heroic tier.  The fact that you can punish both attacks and shifts turns you into a minion's worst nightmare and the fact that they just need to stand next to you to be under its effects really clogs up the middle of combat.

Between the gnoll's racial bonuses to damage, the temperate land heartland damage bonus, and Mr. Scruffy (my trained owlbear companion) with his aura I really felt like I was hitting hard the entire encounter, even while playing defender.  Because I took gnoll for flavor purposes, I couldn't go this route, but an AC of 21 on the defender at 1st level makes them nearly unhittable.

The rest of the party is a lazy archer warlord, an executioner, a dark pact warlock, and a vampire so we're not exactly the most optimal bunch of strikers and I realize I couldn't hang with the likes of a ranger or rogue, but when I flipped the switch to striker late in the encounter I totally outshined everyone.  I was dropping 2d8+12 (1[W] + 1d8 + 4 Str + 2 temperate + 2 pack attack +2 blood fury + 2 owlbear aura) attacks on people.  I can see them outpacing me in paragon and beyond, but in heroic you truly feel like you're now playing a striker.

Savage Cut is kind of a meh power in practice, but it does have the benefit of being an encounter power that carried daily amounts of [W] damage because of the bonus d8.  Stalk and Strike is amazing.  The shift 2 before the attack totally helps with positioning or shifting on difficult terrain.

Another powerful aspect of defender aura is that you punish as an OA as opposed to an IA, which allows you to threaten more creatures.  The big weakness of the mechanic is that if enemies escape your aura, they are no longer debuffed (whereas a mark would "follow" them).  This makes aura-based defenders really vulnerable to forced movement.  Of course when facing monsters with lots of forced movement it might be a good idea to just enter a Fury anyways, which is a luxury that a Knight, for example, lacks.

As for being outpaced by mid-tier strikers in Paragon, I doubt that would happen.  By Paragon you have plenty of gold to gear up with the "charge package," and you'll likely have picked up Storm of Blades, Curtain of Steel, and Battle Awareness.  Frostcheese wouldn't hurt even if you like playing defender, and your punishments would become absolutely sick.  Many Berserkers will likely be only minimally less damaging than an O-Barbarian while in a Fury, and stacking Fury damage on top of the better rages (Rage of the Crimson Hurricane) might eliminate that gap altogether.  All in all, the Berserker really does seem like a full defender that can turn into a full striker with the flip of a switch.

Nov 10, 2011 -- 1:58PM, x3nth10n wrote:

I don't know if anyone spoiled this yet, but there is a level 6 skald encounter power, minor action, range 5, target you or an ally. Target can spend a surge and gain temp HP = their surge value. So basically it's like healing for the bloodied value or overhealing for a surge value. It's like virtue but you can target allies as well and it heals too. Very nice utility for that level IMO.

Lemme get this straight. Do you have to spend the surge to get the temp HP?

Nov 11, 2011 -- 12:42PM, ShinQuickMan wrote:

Nov 10, 2011 -- 1:58PM, x3nth10n wrote:

I don't know if anyone spoiled this yet, but there is a level 6 skald encounter power, minor action, range 5, target you or an ally. Target can spend a surge and gain temp HP = their surge value. So basically it's like healing for the bloodied value or overhealing for a surge value. It's like virtue but you can target allies as well and it heals too. Very nice utility for that level IMO.

Lemme get this straight. Do you have to spend the surge to get the temp HP?

Here's the power:

Revitalizing Incantation Bard Utility 6
You whisper a few phrases in a secret laneuaee, urging your ally's body to mend itself.
Encounter + Arcane, Healing
Minor Action Ranged 5
Target: You or one ally
Effect: The target can spend a healing surge. Additionally, the target gains temporary equal to his or her healing surge value.

I think you can get the temps without spendig the surge, based on that text.

It does seem that way - it's probably not intended, though.

And really, you'd be daft to use the power on someone who's not down at least a surge, it would be a waste.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 12:24PM, alien270 wrote:

Nov 11, 2011 -- 10:56AM, Estlor wrote:

Played my gnoll berserker last night.

This was my first experience with the Defender Aura "marking" mechanism and I have to say it's pretty powerful in heroic tier.  The fact that you can punish both attacks and shifts turns you into a minion's worst nightmare and the fact that they just need to stand next to you to be under its effects really clogs up the middle of combat.

Between the gnoll's racial bonuses to damage, the temperate land heartland damage bonus, and Mr. Scruffy (my trained owlbear companion) with his aura I really felt like I was hitting hard the entire encounter, even while playing defender.  Because I took gnoll for flavor purposes, I couldn't go this route, but an AC of 21 on the defender at 1st level makes them nearly unhittable.

The rest of the party is a lazy archer warlord, an executioner, a dark pact warlock, and a vampire so we're not exactly the most optimal bunch of strikers and I realize I couldn't hang with the likes of a ranger or rogue, but when I flipped the switch to striker late in the encounter I totally outshined everyone.  I was dropping 2d8+12 (1[W] + 1d8 + 4 Str + 2 temperate + 2 pack attack +2 blood fury + 2 owlbear aura) attacks on people.  I can see them outpacing me in paragon and beyond, but in heroic you truly feel like you're now playing a striker.

Savage Cut is kind of a meh power in practice, but it does have the benefit of being an encounter power that carried daily amounts of [W] damage because of the bonus d8.  Stalk and Strike is amazing.  The shift 2 before the attack totally helps with positioning or shifting on difficult terrain.

Another powerful aspect of defender aura is that you punish as an OA as opposed to an IA, which allows you to threaten more creatures.  The big weakness of the mechanic is that if enemies escape your aura, they are no longer debuffed (whereas a mark would "follow" them).  This makes aura-based defenders really vulnerable to forced movement.  Of course when facing monsters with lots of forced movement it might be a good idea to just enter a Fury anyways, which is a luxury that a Knight, for example, lacks.

As for being outpaced by mid-tier strikers in Paragon, I doubt that would happen.  By Paragon you have plenty of gold to gear up with the "charge package," and you'll likely have picked up Storm of Blades, Curtain of Steel, and Battle Awareness.  Frostcheese wouldn't hurt even if you like playing defender, and your punishments would become absolutely sick.  Many Berserkers will likely be only minimally less damaging than an O-Barbarian while in a Fury, and stacking Fury damage on top of the better rages (Rage of the Crimson Hurricane) might eliminate that gap altogether.  All in all, the Berserker really does seem like a full defender that can turn into a full striker with the flip of a switch.

The aura mechanic is vulnerable to forced movement but it is also enhanced by forced movement.  For example an o-fighter has an enemy pushed adjacent to him.  Outside of the standard OA there is no special benefit but the aura based guy will now be able to punish the enemy so in the end it is a boon and a vulnerability.  With a party with a lot of forced movement and ally movement powers (like a bard) the aura can be very effective.

As for striking I think it is hard to say but let us look at each piece (at least as far as I understand).  In terms of striking they both can get the same encounters and dailies (well very nearly the same nice the O-barb does have a chance at critting but that is held below).

1-  At wills. The barb is very likely using howling strike which means a charge +tier d6.  The berserker will be charging with tier d8 and the MBA could possibly be a power that is a mba.  In addition that means that the stuff the boosts mbas will work with the power.  Seems like that is in the berserker's favor.

2.  rampage-this gives a boost to DPR but I am not sure how much though it is in the o-barbs favor (though it is condiditonal and random).

3.  Swift charge and similar.  This is another encounter power that can help a barb nova but it is not for every barb.

4.  OAs.  Bererkers get their striker damage with mbas while your standard barb does not.

5.  Out of turn attacks.  Any out of turn attack that grants a MBA is better with the berserker due to their striker bonus.

I would say that the o-barb has a better possible nova (though not always under your control) but is slightly less on at wills.  The berserker is more consistant but I think the O-barb, if he gets lucky (or you can force the circumstances), can go absolutely nuts for round.  Berserkers get a bonus on out of turn attacks in general.  I imagine that they are very close more of a "what do you like better" sort of deals.

I think the best way to think of the Berserker is as a defender who can strike. You can punish very hard, and striking optimization will, for the most part, also make you a better defender, so it's not a wonky class to play or build for. You just shouldn't be the team's primary striker, if it can be helped.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 1:49PM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

I think the best way to think of the Berserker is as a defender who can strike. You can punish very hard, and striking optimization will, for the most part, also make you a better defender, so it's not a wonky class to play or build for. You just shouldn't be the team's primary striker, if it can be helped.

Do we have numbers yet that show it is a weaker striker to any significant degree than the o-barb?  If not is the o-barb not good enough to be a primary striker because I don't see it yet that they are different enough to make a major case agasint the berserker?  

Nov 11, 2011 -- 12:56PM, thespaceinvader wrote:

It does seem that way - it's probably not intended, though.

And really, you'd be daft to use the power on someone who's not down at least a surge, it would be a waste.

It's not a waste if you're using it on a sleepless Warforged with an amazingly high surge value. Nyak nyak nyak.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 2:05PM, The_Crimson_Dawn wrote:

Nov 11, 2011 -- 1:49PM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

I think the best way to think of the Berserker is as a defender who can strike. You can punish very hard, and striking optimization will, for the most part, also make you a better defender, so it's not a wonky class to play or build for. You just shouldn't be the team's primary striker, if it can be helped.

Do we have numbers yet that show it is a weaker striker to any significant degree than the o-barb?  If not is the o-barb not good enough to be a primary striker because I don't see it yet that they are different enough to make a major case agasint the berserker?  

Eh.... the O-Barb was always sort of a "Meh" striker. It functions at high op, but a Rogue or Ranger is typically much better at it. What is nice about O-Barb's is the High Ac and the High HP, which we maintain with the Berserker, as well as getting a pretty good striker mechanic.

We DID lose rampage and Feral might [Read: Swift Charge] So we do lose out on our 2 big Striker tricks. (free MBA, and a free charge 1/enc) Rampage can make us a really good striker, or a realy **** striker, so it's loss I dont really mourn (infact it'll be nice not feeling jealous when someone else crits.) . Without the abillity to multiattack frequently our abillity to "strike" is pretty hampered. And now we have lost our free charge.

Despite that we aren't really behind the O-Barb at all,  what we lost in the charge we gain in punishment. Namely the Slow and the CA. We can keep them at -2 (10% greater chance of us hitting) while we do 15 average DPR (non enhanced/ lvl1)  or we can slow them down, so that they cant run away from you very well. To be honest it feels like we got a spattering of control with our new build. it's not great control, but it does make us much more potent on the battlefield. 

Berserkers should function at the same level as barb's do for striking and we will function at a good level for defending as well. The real advantage of this class is being able to multi-task. The Defender is great at shutting down enemy offensives, and being able to punish them for it is amazing, and with a good D12 weapon you will be doing that just fine. And being just as good a striker as we were before will give a lot of versatillity. We are a utillity class. We can be the bouncer, or we can be the shock troop, and there are plenty of powers to help us do our job in the new material, and the old.

I see three ways to build a Berserker:

1. Primary Defender who can swap to striker when a Defender stops being necessary

2. Secondary Defender who controls alongside a pure Defender and is quick to swap when that control becomes redundant

3. Pure Striker who can choose to stay Defender when that is useful.

Feat and item wise I'd imagine the three to be very similar. The differences would be in the powers, as the more Defender focused the more martial powers you would have.

The problem with that idea, oblivion, is that the Berserker has 1 martial power per level, and it's nearly always bad. Additionally, its defender features are so marginal (thanks to the authors thinking that the ability to use powers with higher damage qualified as a substitute for actual class features) that the Barbarian would do a better job of being a "defender" by taking Primal powers with heavy status effects than by using the martial powers.

In order for the defender Berserker to exist, it will need an entirely new set of martial options, or at least easily abusable hybrid rules.

There's never a reason to pick the martial powers. They kinda suck, except the at-wills. 'Dead' is the best control you can have, and Storm of Blades + Hurricane of Blades gobble up two slots already while Curtain of Steel is a good candidate for third. That's your encounter powers down and all of them make you a better defender, as they draw aggro to you and then allow you to punish people for attacking you.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 2:05PM, The_Crimson_Dawn wrote:

Nov 11, 2011 -- 1:49PM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

I think the best way to think of the Berserker is as a defender who can strike. You can punish very hard, and striking optimization will, for the most part, also make you a better defender, so it's not a wonky class to play or build for. You just shouldn't be the team's primary striker, if it can be helped.

Do we have numbers yet that show it is a weaker striker to any significant degree than the o-barb?  If not is the o-barb not good enough to be a primary striker because I don't see it yet that they are different enough to make a major case agasint the berserker?  

The barbarian is a first round striker, which is a rather notable advantage over the Berserker, who can't get his damage boosting mechanic off with his first attack, pretty much ever. Most combats the Berserker will be a defender or a mid grade striker in the first round, and then a very good striker in subsequent rounds. The barb will usually contribute slightly more (or a lot more, depending on player) to the swift killing of high priority mobs than a berserker will. But, in unoptimized play, the Berzerker may well outpace the barbarian. Not to mention that you can also be a defender.

You can't be a defender. As a striker, the Berserker is directly worse because it lacks the Barbarian's momentum-building mechanics, which are the thing that make the Barbarian unique and effective.

In conclusion, the only class in the game worse designed than the Berserker is the Bladesinger.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 3:13PM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

Nov 11, 2011 -- 2:05PM, The_Crimson_Dawn wrote:

Nov 11, 2011 -- 1:49PM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

I think the best way to think of the Berserker is as a defender who can strike. You can punish very hard, and striking optimization will, for the most part, also make you a better defender, so it's not a wonky class to play or build for. You just shouldn't be the team's primary striker, if it can be helped.

Do we have numbers yet that show it is a weaker striker to any significant degree than the o-barb?  If not is the o-barb not good enough to be a primary striker because I don't see it yet that they are different enough to make a major case agasint the berserker?  

The barbarian is a first round striker, which is a rather notable advantage over the Berserker, who can't get his damage boosting mechanic off with his first attack, pretty much ever. Most combats the Berserker will be a defender or a mid grade striker in the first round, and then a very good striker in subsequent rounds. The barb will usually contribute slightly more (or a lot more, depending on player) to the swift killing of high priority mobs than a berserker will. But, in unoptimized play, the Berzerker may well outpace the barbarian. Not to mention that you can also be a defender.

This holds in optimal play too, BTW. The Berserker pumps out...wanna say 10-15% less damage than the O-Barb, but he can do so operating as a 90% capable Defender all day erryday. Sure, you lose some damage, but you gain a stupid amount of utility that more than compensates for it. You only need to get one or two punishment swings off to outpace the O-Barb, and if you fill the Striker slot either you will or your defender will. In either case, the party DPR spikes up, which in the end matters more than epeen from doing max-by-class damage.

I don't think the Berserker is in that bad shape as a primary Defender. It has at least the capability of the Knight(damage early, prone at paragon with a flail) in this regard. The martial powers might not be great, but if you plan on spending 70-80% of your time as a Defender, what else are you going to do?

As a Striker, you will be a turn slower than a pure Striker, but you have the option to be a fully functional Defender if the battle demands it(for a little while, anyway) which makes up for it somewhat.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 3:32PM, thecasualoblivion wrote:

I don't think the Berserker is in that bad shape as a primary Defender. It has at least the capability of the Knight(damage early, prone at paragon with a flail) in this regard. The martial powers might not be great, but if you plan on spending 70-80% of your time as a Defender, what else are you going to do? As a Striker, you will be a turn slower than a pure Striker, but you have the option to be a fully functional Defender if the battle demands it(for a little while, anyway) which makes up for it somewhat.

You aren't a "fully functional" defender. You start on par with the Strength Paladin at the point when you're as effective as you'll ever be as a defender and the Paladin is at its weakest.

The Berserker's similarities to the Knight are superficial only. It doesn't have stances, it doesn't have the ability to augment its punishment with power strikes, its punishment can't natively prevent attacks, it doesn't have meaningful class features, it doesn't have good defender utilities, and it simply put lacks every capability that makes the Knight work.

I forget do you go  beserk after any primal attack power (including at wills) and do you get to choose any barb at will?

If so you could take howling strike and pick up two weapon opening.  At the start of a combat there 3 primary barb tactics unless I am forgetting something.

1.  Charge with howling strike

2.  Rage power

3.  barb encounter power

Of those 2 and 3 the berserker will essentially do the same except for rampage.

Number one the berserker does better if in a berserk.  If howling strike can put you into a berserk then you will use howling strike on a first round and be equal and then use mbas the rest of the time. 

Two weapon opening replaces rampage on a striker first berserker.

can't replace swift charge but then that was only on one build of 4 types of barbs so I think it is fair to omit that in a general bar disccussion.  

Seems like you can make it very close to equal especially since the berserker is better on out of turn attacks.

Just seems like a thought.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 3:36PM, erachima wrote:

Nov 11, 2011 -- 3:32PM, thecasualoblivion wrote:

I don't think the Berserker is in that bad shape as a primary Defender. It has at least the capability of the Knight(damage early, prone at paragon with a flail) in this regard. The martial powers might not be great, but if you plan on spending 70-80% of your time as a Defender, what else are you going to do? As a Striker, you will be a turn slower than a pure Striker, but you have the option to be a fully functional Defender if the battle demands it(for a little while, anyway) which makes up for it somewhat.

You aren't a "fully functional" defender. You start on par with the Strength Paladin at the point when you're as effective as you'll ever be as a defender and the Paladin is at its weakest.

The Berserker's similarities to the Knight are superficial only. It doesn't have stances, it doesn't have the ability to augment its punishment with power strikes, its punishment can't natively prevent attacks, it doesn't have meaningful class features, it doesn't have good defender utilities, and it simply put lacks every capability that makes the Knight work.

Pffffftahahahahaha

Power Strikes. Good one, there. You got me. Let's be real, what sort of idiot wouldn't swap Power Strike out for some more offturn attacks or real control? Anybody out there? Nope? Thought so. Power Strikes are total crap and they're not a plus in the Knight's favor, but a negative because he has to burn feats to get real powers.

Additionally, you have an easy block on damage: Lightning Weaponry. Mark of Storm = enemy gets chucked away and takes a bunch of damage for free. Yes, yes, this cuts into your DPR a bit and it's not native, but again, you are doing party op to be the best berserker you can be. You're getting free damage and nullifying a melee enemy's turns after you have your feat and weapon, and beforehand you're playing like a pure Striker and being good at it because the math works out form levels 1 to 4. This is as good as it gets for you. It means risk-free damage (probably not completely risk free since high level enemies have punishes, but most of those don't kick in on their turn so you're good), and an easy victory. I mean, the Berserker is a better defender than the Battlemind is, except against Ranged enemies, and it gets to do excellent damage for two to four turns afterward. What else could you possibly want from it?

So your plan is to maintain a second weapon, spend 2 feats, wait until paragon, and lower your weapon damage in order to replicate Rampage? ...OK then.

Far from optimized, but how fun would a Half-Elf Barbarian/Vampire be? (Adept Dilettante and taking both Primal Vampire and Martial Vampire)

Nov 11, 2011 -- 3:49PM, Armisael wrote:

Additionally, you have an easy block on damage: Lightning Weaponry. Mark of Storm = enemy gets chucked away and takes a bunch of damage for free. Yes, yes, this cuts into your DPR a bit and it's not native, but again, you are doing party op to be the best berserker you can be. You're getting free damage and nullifying a melee enemy's turns after you have your feat and weapon, and beforehand you're playing like a pure Striker and being good at it because the math works out form levels 1 to 4. This is as good as it gets for you. It means risk-free damage (probably not completely risk free since high level enemies have punishes, but most of those don't kick in on their turn so you're good), and an easy victory. I mean, the Berserker is a better defender than the Battlemind is, except against Ranged enemies, and it gets to do excellent damage for two to four turns afterward. What else could you possibly want from it?

You know who else can take Mark of Storm to do that? Anyone. You mention the battlemind? With MoS, they can flat out negate any attack made within 5 of them. (Not to mention they get to actually mark things.) Mark of Storm is utterly irrelevant here, and that you'd use it as your first line of defense shows just how utterly dire the Berserker's defender support is.

What do I want? I want it to in any way be a competent member of its class role. Defenders are the single most feature-reliant role, and the Berserker doesn't have them. It's literally just a riderless MBA punishment, for one round each encounter. You know who else can do that? Anyone that MCs Fighter, only better because theirs doesn't require you avoid using your good powers.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 3:19PM, Armisael wrote:

Nov 11, 2011 -- 3:13PM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

Nov 11, 2011 -- 2:05PM, The_Crimson_Dawn wrote:

Nov 11, 2011 -- 1:49PM, DoctorBadWolf wrote:

I think the best way to think of the Berserker is as a defender who can strike. You can punish very hard, and striking optimization will, for the most part, also make you a better defender, so it's not a wonky class to play or build for. You just shouldn't be the team's primary striker, if it can be helped.

Do we have numbers yet that show it is a weaker striker to any significant degree than the o-barb?  If not is the o-barb not good enough to be a primary striker because I don't see it yet that they are different enough to make a major case agasint the berserker?  

The barbarian is a first round striker, which is a rather notable advantage over the Berserker, who can't get his damage boosting mechanic off with his first attack, pretty much ever. Most combats the Berserker will be a defender or a mid grade striker in the first round, and then a very good striker in subsequent rounds. The barb will usually contribute slightly more (or a lot more, depending on player) to the swift killing of high priority mobs than a berserker will. But, in unoptimized play, the Berzerker may well outpace the barbarian. Not to mention that you can also be a defender.

This holds in optimal play too, BTW. The Berserker pumps out...wanna say 10-15% less damage than the O-Barb, but he can do so operating as a 90% capable Defender all day erryday. Sure, you lose some damage, but you gain a stupid amount of utility that more than compensates for it. You only need to get one or two punishment swings off to outpace the O-Barb, and if you fill the Striker slot either you will or your defender will. In either case, the party DPR spikes up, which in the end matters more than epeen from doing max-by-class damage.

Does it matter more than killing the most dangerous target in round one? It's not about epeen. It's about one of the primary things that makes a striker awesome, rather than just good. Berserkers can be good strikers. Being as good as the barb isn't as easy, though, due to the potential damage delay. Now, charging and/or using a rage daily in turn one will help, and set you up from the start to be in full rage/fury striker mode, but the barb is a striker at all times, no matter what.

The berserker is a good sub class. It just isn't as awesome a primary striker as it's brother subclass.

The berserker is best as the fifth man. And it's good that there are classes that shine in that role.

I don't want to go back and find the martial berserker powers. Are they any good? Do they actually help you defend effectively?

As erachima has pointed out, ole bear skin needs some defender support, so that it's more worthwhile to actually play one as a defender. If you could switch back and forth in a battle between roles, I would be more ok with one role being less supported, but the fact that you have to start a defender and become a striker, and can't switch back means that both roles should be well supported.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 4:04PM, erachima wrote:

Nov 11, 2011 -- 3:49PM, Armisael wrote:

Additionally, you have an easy block on damage: Lightning Weaponry. Mark of Storm = enemy gets chucked away and takes a bunch of damage for free. Yes, yes, this cuts into your DPR a bit and it's not native, but again, you are doing party op to be the best berserker you can be. You're getting free damage and nullifying a melee enemy's turns after you have your feat and weapon, and beforehand you're playing like a pure Striker and being good at it because the math works out form levels 1 to 4. This is as good as it gets for you. It means risk-free damage (probably not completely risk free since high level enemies have punishes, but most of those don't kick in on their turn so you're good), and an easy victory. I mean, the Berserker is a better defender than the Battlemind is, except against Ranged enemies, and it gets to do excellent damage for two to four turns afterward. What else could you possibly want from it?

You know who else can take Mark of Storm to do that? Anyone. You mention the battlemind? With MoS, they can flat out negate any attack made within 5 of them. (Not to mention they get to actually mark things.) Mark of Storm is utterly irrelevant here, and that you'd use it as your first line of defense shows just how utterly dire the Berserker's defender support is.

What do I want? I want it to in any way be a competent member of its class role. Defenders are the single most feature-reliant role, and the Berserker doesn't have them. It's literally just a riderless MBA punishment, for one round each encounter. You know who else can do that? Anyone that MCs Fighter, only better because theirs doesn't require you avoid using your good powers.

The battlemind also can't execute multi-enemy punishes however, and is pretty damn bad at defending specific positions. Both of these things contribute to make the Berserker better than you think he is, because he does them well.

Does it matter more than killing the most dangerous target in round one? It's not about epeen. It's about one of the primary things that makes a striker awesome, rather than just good. Berserkers can be good strikers. Being as good as the barb isn't as easy, though, due to the potential damage delay. Now, charging and/or using a rage daily in turn one will help, and set you up from the start to be in full rage/fury striker mode, but the barb is a striker at all times, no matter what.

The berserker is a good sub class. It just isn't as awesome a primary striker as it's brother subclass.

The berserker is best as the fifth man. And it's good that there are classes that shine in that role.

I think the problem is that you're evaluating the Berserker in a vacuum. Yes, it's not as good a Striker as the barb because it doesn't have Rampage and Swift Charge. It is however, a good enough Striker and a Defender on top. Out of curiosity, have you played any MOBA games before? In MOBA games, you have a role that is very similar to that of a Striker, the Carry. Genre-specific shenanigans aside (the Carry gets better and better as time goes on because they gain access to more items that amp their damage, similarly to our feats but way more pronounced), a Carry can fit into a spectrum: it can be pure damage, using multiple damage types and inbuilt steroids (a purely glassy Ranger is similar), or it can mix damage with utility, packing say...a 3 second stun that can be used relatively often (which is like a two-round encounter turn in 4th ed. terms) at the cost of somewhat-lower, but still very high DPR. The Berserker is close to this second Carry, and this doesn't make it bad - just requires different tactics and using the inbuilt flexibility to tailor yourself to your party.

I cant comment as much on the defenders, not normally playing one. But from a tactical stand point I cant wait to use the new Aura. It doesn't offer marking, but it does solid damage, and ignoring that is never a good idea.

As to the striker, losing the charge is the only drawback. I'll miss the feral might, but being more then a big fat meaty thing with a heavy swing is going to be fun. 

I do hope we get more support as time goes on, but the tactical options are enough for me to sink my teeth into for now. As to damage output lost from not having our Feral might.... the rageblood is the only one who gets a serious edge, BUT even at high op it can be bothersome using feral might. It's hard to trigger and charges are hard to control. More often then not I wear an opponent down then a troublesome archer will take my kill. Or I'll manage the take down only to realize that who i want to charge is to close to charge, or that they are to far away to charge. It works out now and then of course, but even when you charge op, it's problematic. 

As to Dr. badwolf

The at wills offer CA, Slow, push and slide (you push then shift into their square), and a poor mans pressing strike (You get the shift but not the push.)  all but the push and slide have 1/2/3d8 bonus when frenzied and it offers d6's. And your MBA gets D8's as well.

So they are as good as you think they are. Im a fan of all of them, even the poorer Pressing Strike. I rarely use pressing strike for the push (I could just bullrush for that) I use it for the shift. And in frenzy they offer much more umph then any of the other Atwill powers for barbs.

That seems like enough just in the at will powers to play respectable defender for a couple rounds.  They probably do need some better martial encounters and dailies to be able to go full defender, but being able to defend at the at-will level for a couple rounds as needed without missing out on too much striking seems like a good deal to me.  At very least, it's a form of multi-role character that we haven't really seen before.  And while I don't have HotFL in front of me, the rider selection on those at wills sounds oddly similar to the things the Knight does with its stances...

And erachima, if you don't mind my asking, what DO you like in 4e?  It seems like every single time I see you posting, you're complaining that whatever people are talking about actually sucks horribly, and explaining why they should quit thinking it's good or interesting.  I gather that you like multi-attacking strikers, but I don't think I've heard you say something unequivocally good about anything else in the system.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 3:51PM, erachima wrote:

So your plan is to maintain a second weapon, spend 2 feats, wait until paragon, and lower your weapon damage in order to replicate Rampage? ...OK then.

1.  You would use a double weapon (since you want to use howling strike in this case) so second weapon is no unless you want to do that.

2.  Yes I spend two feats but honestly one is a very good feat for this type of build (and if rampage did not exist it would be a viable feat for a barb) and the other is sadly required but it is useful in getting even other feats to help you live so it is not all bad.  Also this feat is more versatile than rampage since you can get the extra attack from any power not just a primal power.

3.  My damage die may go down slightly but on most attacks the effect will be minimal (since most of my attacks are low W except the rages) and since I am primarilly using mbas I can get more oomph from feats than you can get for most barb at wills. 

Besides you don't have to do this but it is a way to replicate rampage if you feel the need.  I am not saying they are fully a better striker it justs seems like you can make a comparable striker with this class and it certainly does not appear to deserve the disdain you give it. 

Nov 11, 2011 -- 4:04PM, erachima wrote:

What do I want? I want it to in any way be a competent member of its class role. Defenders are the single most feature-reliant role, and the Berserker doesn't have them. It's literally just a riderless MBA punishment, for one round each encounter. You know who else can do that? Anyone that MCs Fighter, only better because theirs doesn't require you avoid using your good powers.

Wait, huh?  Forgive me if I'm interpreting this incorrectly, but it doesn't sound like you understand how the Berserker's defender mechanic works.  First of all, the punishment is not a "riderless MBA," it's a MBA with an extra 1d8/tier damage.  That's basically a striker damage feature on its mark punishment, and is almost equivalent to the Knight using Power Strike, but on every mark punishment.  Second, the Berserker does not defend for just one round each encounter.  If you never enter a Fury, your aura stays active for the whole encounter, just like the Knight's.  Punishment, too, is very similar to the Knight's in that it's an OA free swing on anyone who violates your aura. 

As a general comment on the Berserker's martial encounter powers, they're not all as bad as people are making them out to be.  At first level you get a 2[W] attack that prones, and there's really not much in the way of Primal powers that you'd want to take in its place.  The 3rd level power seems underwhelming at first (when the target moves you can shift your speed to a square adjacent to it), but think about the weaknesses of the defender aura: forced movement and teleports or other monster movement that doesn't necessarily provoke (I'm thinking Deathjump Spiders here).  Point being, it allows you to follow an enemy that somehow escapes from your aura.  Situational?  Sure.  But highly useful when it comes up.  And rounding out Heroic tier is the level 7 encounter which immoblizes.  While this may not compete with Curtain of Steel in a general sense, if you're trying to build a defender Berserker it's not a bad power to have.

At level 13 your "knock prone" attack gets upgraded with an additional [W] damage and a slide before the prone.  At level 17...never mind, this one's actually worse than the 3rd level thanks to a poorly worded "trigger."  At level 23 you get a "soft defender" power that could very well turn itself into a striker power; if the target tries to move it takes Str damage for each square of movement.  Level 27 is close to a multi-attack, as it knocks the target prone and causes it to provoke OAs for standing up.  Of these defender powers, only the level 17 "sucks."  Most are certainly better than the Knight's Power Strike, and the Berserker has dailies to boot (which make up for the lack of stances).  Eye of the Maelstrom is particularly juicy, as it expands your aura to an aura 2 and lets you shift before punishing marks (lasts the whole encounter).  The Knight is also prevented from picking up Battle Awareness on account of it already being a Fighter.

Nah, you just don't understand my tendency towards reductionism.

Effective defenders have punishments that proactively negate the actions of their marked targets. The Berserker does not. This means it's already in the ineffective list even before we notice that it has absolutely no role-appropriate support. +dice is not a defender-appropriate rider, it does nothing to discourage a target who was interested in leaving, much less prevent them from acting. (Power Attack isn't relevant for its dice at all, incidentally, it's relevant for the weapon spec options.)

The Berserker will not stay in its defender state for more than a turn because its martial powers are terrible and its striker value is deprecating by the second. The majority of its value as a defender will lie in pre-first-turn actions, where if you have battlefront shift or iaijutsu you may be able to get enemies to waste a couple hits on you before switching over in T1. This grows ever more the case as it rises in level, and its pathetic martial options underscale while the good primal options become better and better. Encounter-wise --which are the limiting factor, since as soon as you run out of martial encounter powers you are actively gimping yourself-- the Berserker has one blue martial power at E1, the rest are all purple and red, with a couple spots of black. (Also, the E27 is nothing close to a multi-attack. The creature simply doesn't stand up and takes a -2 penalty to attacks. Are you seriously suggesting that ANYONE might opt for that over Hurricane?)

...And you aren't just competing with the Barbarian list, you're competing with all the actually effective defenders you could be playing instead. The Berserker's still dinking about with slide+prone where the fighter just outright stuns the guy. Single-target immobilize, meet CaGI. (Or, hell, meet Furious Smash as wielded by the Barbarian|Cleric who will outshine you as a defender in paragon, match you as a striker at all levels, and get to be a leader to boot.)

Nov 11, 2011 -- 8:15PM, alien270 wrote:

Nov 11, 2011 -- 4:04PM, erachima wrote:

What do I want? I want it to in any way be a competent member of its class role. Defenders are the single most feature-reliant role, and the Berserker doesn't have them. It's literally just a riderless MBA punishment, for one round each encounter. You know who else can do that? Anyone that MCs Fighter, only better because theirs doesn't require you avoid using your good powers.

  First of all, the punishment is not a "riderless MBA," it's a MBA with an extra 1d8/tier damage.  That's basically a striker damage feature on its mark punishment, and is almost equivalent to the Knight using Power Strike, but on every mark punishment. 

Ummm. I think i miseed that to, the Punishment also gets 1d8/tier?

Maybe it's the late hour talking, but the berserker really looks okay to me. 

Either the knight is not an effective defender, or the berserker is: unless you arrange to spend all your off-turn time in the Hammer Hands stance, the knight similarly lacks an at-will method of canceling attacks--and the berserker's swings hurt more. I really see the knight and the defender-berserker are really quite comparable.

In any case, I'm quite comfortable thinking of the berserker as a sort of pre-built hybrid, and from that perspective it looks pretty good. It doesn't need to be 100% defender and 100% striker to make me happy, but 80/80 instead--the fifth man the good Doctor mentioned just upthread.  It does that quite nicely, and will fit into even an optimized party as a second defender that can swing into striker mode what that's necessary or convenient.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 10:12PM, Dragvandil13 wrote:

Nov 11, 2011 -- 8:15PM, alien270 wrote:

Nov 11, 2011 -- 4:04PM, erachima wrote:

What do I want? I want it to in any way be a competent member of its class role. Defenders are the single most feature-reliant role, and the Berserker doesn't have them. It's literally just a riderless MBA punishment, for one round each encounter. You know who else can do that? Anyone that MCs Fighter, only better because theirs doesn't require you avoid using your good powers.

  First of all, the punishment is not a "riderless MBA," it's a MBA with an extra 1d8/tier damage.  That's basically a striker damage feature on its mark punishment, and is almost equivalent to the Knight using Power Strike, but on every mark punishment. 

Ummm. I think i miseed that to, the Punishment also gets 1d8/tier?

Yes you get a striker like damage bonus on your punishment attacks.  remember though that you won't get your actual striker bonus and this punishment bonus since you lose your ability to punish when you activate your striker abilities.  Still it compares well to great weapon fighter punishment before they created the feat that adds immobilize to their combat challenge attacks.

of course, and that actually makes the Berserker a much more formidable defender. Risking a Powerful SLAP is a good deterrent. And sticking with the foe will make you difficult to ignore. 

Hopefully we get a nice feat to add some extra umph to our defender abillities.

Berserker is pretty awesome, and hopefully we get some more support. Either in the magazine or in the next Heroes Book (Heroes of nature) a feat or 2 would be nice and so would some more powers like the ones the paragon grants. 

While I don't think the Berserker is useless as a Defender, the Knight does have some significant advantages.  Right off the bat, you can choose to live in, say, Defend the Line Stance, making every basic attack you dole out slow.  Sure, the Berserker has a slowing At-Will, but slowing whenever you charge, opportunity attack, or punish is pretty nice- especially once you combine this with World Serpent's Grasp.  Vicious Advantage combos nice with this as well, giving you a very nice accuracy boost.

And on the topic of accuracy, the innate +1 to hit with all weapons the Knight gets cannot be underestimated.  It allows a greater deal of latitude with your stats, allowing you to build Knights with less-than-optimal races or arrays.  Since your defenses are based on armor (Plate+Heavy Shield), you don't need to burn a Feat and have a 16 Dex to make sure you're not getting hit.

Yes, 21 AC at first-level is nice, but there's a price to be paid for that.  As a Defender, you really want more than a 12-13 Con, even with Born Under A Bad Sign.  Defenders often do end up taking the lion's share of damage, so you want more than 9 healing surges, at least in low Heroic.  Later on, when healing gets better, that may change, but that's more dependant on what kind of Leader your party has.

Sure, high AC means you get hit less, but by the time a Knight gets +2 plate, your advantage will be gone, thanks to Masterwork Armor.  Sure, you can catch up with Elven Chain, but that's not cheap (especially since the Knight only needs Bracers of Mighty Striking, and you're going to want Iron Armbands, for example).

Now we can look at the various Power Strike Feats.  Once you take something like Hammer Strike, you can choose to daze when you punish, which, depending on what your enemy does, is sickening punishment.  Then at level 8, we tack on the Weapon Specialization bonus as well.  When your Power Strike can immobilize and daze, you've reached amazing levels of lockdown.

And I haven't even left Heroic Tier yet!  Don't get me wrong, I know a lot of DM's who will blanch at the idea of their precious monsters taking free hits from a Berserker, so I know the class can be effective and sticky, but a Knight can easily be built to deny entire enemy turns, as opposed to merely slapping them upside the head.  At Paragon, the Hammer Knight can add Rattling to all his attacks, making him and his allies less likely to be hit by attacks.  Maybe you can find a way to add Psychic Lock in there as well, and make the DM cry when you switch on Glowering Threat.

And then Epic...well, it's probably not worth discussing.  But if you're curious- Overwhelming Impact.  That is all.            

The Berserker is still young, give it time. =P

He's not even out of the womb yet, and I do hope we get access to some more defendery hijinks. Death is of course the best condition to inflict, but it would be nice if we got some good stuff of our own to throw in. Like weakend for example, that would be a pretty nifty condition to inflict, it wouldn't be stealing anyones thunder, and it would help with the defending idea.

People are going to have vastly different ideas of what a "competent" defender entails.

I think in a typical moderately optimized group, a Berserker can perform just fine as a defender, and a lot of people will be drawn to the concept.

In CharOp theoryland, where some of us live all the time and perhaps lose sight of games elsewhere, I don't think the Berserker is going to surpass existing defenders or strikers. The ability to cover both roles fairly well is hard to quantify, as is the benefit of your friend finally playing something other than a 100% striker so that the rest of your group can maybe try out a different role in your weekly game.

Is this good design because it has innovative striker and defender features that make it top-tier at either role?  No, it's good design because it makes a class that people will want to play. And it performs just fine in a casual game with friends. WotC sells to more folks than just oppers, and I feel like this build doesn't sacrifice nearly as much effectiveness for "fun" as did the Vampire and Binder. As such, saying its the second worse designed class in the game seems like a little much.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 9:31PM, erachima wrote:

Effective defenders have punishments that proactively negate the actions of their marked targets. The Berserker does not. This means it's already in the ineffective list even before we notice that it has absolutely no role-appropriate support. +dice is not a defender-appropriate rider, it does nothing to discourage a target who was interested in leaving, much less prevent them from acting. (Power Attack isn't relevant for its dice at all, incidentally, it's relevant for the weapon spec options.)

Starting at level 1, Run Down to slow a guy and then knock them prone with Vengeful Guardian when they try to shift away (via WSG), or with an OA if they try to walk or charge away.  Berserker has just negated the action of a marked target. 

In terms of negating attacks, the one thing that comes to mind is Shield Push, but that's Fighter specific.  Swordmages get some nifty powers that allow them to do this (Dimensional Vortex).  As far as I can recall Wardens, Paladins, Knights, and Battleminds have no methods of outright negating an attack like that (granted I'm not 100% familiar with those classes and some options may open up at higher levels).

I'll give you Power Strike's weapon spec...if you're a hammer Knight.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 9:31PM, erachima wrote:

The Berserker will not stay in its defender state for more than a turn because its martial powers are terrible and its striker value is deprecating by the second. The majority of its value as a defender will lie in pre-first-turn actions, where if you have battlefront shift or iaijutsu you may be able to get enemies to waste a couple hits on you before switching over in T1. This grows ever more the case as it rises in level, and its pathetic martial options underscale while the good primal options become better and better. Encounter-wise --which are the limiting factor, since as soon as you run out of martial encounter powers you are actively gimping yourself-- the Berserker has one blue martial power at E1, the rest are all purple and red, with a couple spots of black. (Also, the E27 is nothing close to a multi-attack. The creature simply doesn't stand up and takes a -2 penalty to attacks. Are you seriously suggesting that ANYONE might opt for that over Hurricane?)

You're assuming that the Berserker will be trying to defend and strike in every single encounter.  This is not necessarily the case.  It's perfectly reasonable for a Berserker to stay in defender-mode for an entire encounter, and I think you're underrating its martial encounter powers.  E17 is red/purple, but I would consider E1, E7, and E27 all at least blue, with everything else being black. 

As for E27, sure the guy can not stand up, but he's going to keep taking that -2 penalty to attack, keep granting CA, and is severely restricting his movement options until he finally bites the bullet and stands (or until he dies).  He's a perfect target for everyone to focus-fire, and he likely won't live much longer than a turn or two anyways.  Is that better than Hurricane of Blades?  Hell no, because HoB will kill the guy now.  Some defender-focused Berserkers might opt for the Martial option at this level, however, and in any case level 27 is so late in your career that it's practically a non-issue.  You could make the same argument for Storm of Blades, but IMO it's perfectly reasonable to have that as your only Primal encounter power.  Some encounters you'll lead off with that and play striker the whole time (Barbarians tend to strike by charging around with their MBAs anyways, so you won't be gimped for the rest of the encounter), but it also wouldn't be a bad idea to bust it out near the middle or end of an encounter to finish someone off after having defended the rest of the time (for example, an annoying artillery or lurker that nobody could get to right away). 

In any case, it's a faulty argument to claim that a Berserker is a bad defender because it will not stay in defender mode past turn 1.  Not everyone is going to care about being the striker all of the time, even if striker Barbarian support is better.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 9:31PM, erachima wrote:

...And you aren't just competing with the Barbarian list, you're competing with all the actually effective defenders you could be playing instead. The Berserker's still dinking about with slide+prone where the fighter just outright stuns the guy. Single-target immobilize, meet CaGI. (Or, hell, meet Furious Smash as wielded by the Barbarian|Cleric who will outshine you as a defender in paragon, match you as a striker at all levels, and get to be a leader to boot.)

Sure, Fighters have an advantage.  That shouldn't come as a surprise given all of their support, though.  However, Fighters are still stuck punishing with an IA as opposed to an OA, and they won't be hitting as hard.  Vengeful Guardian's high damage will be a meaningful deterrent for most enemies, especially considering the Berserker can slap anyone in the aura on a given turn. 

I'm not familiar with the Barbarian|Cleric hybrid, but I'm assuming you're going with the Warpriest PP?  Well, its mark/punishment doesn't kick in until 16th level, so you've spent half your career not being a defender at all.  You can only mark 1 creature at a time, and only with at-will attacks, and the punishment isn't a strong as a Berserker's.  It sounds like it's mostly a leader with some strong off-striker capabilities, and some minor defender functionality.  I don't see it as outshining the Berserker as a defender at all, but if there's something I'm missing feel free to detail a build.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 11:50PM, Metafictional wrote:

While I don't think the Berserker is useless as a Defender, the Knight does have some significant advantages.  Right off the bat, you can choose to live in, say, Defend the Line Stance, making every basic attack you dole out slow.  Sure, the Berserker has a slowing At-Will, but slowing whenever you charge, opportunity attack, or punish is pretty nice- especially once you combine this with World Serpent's Grasp.  Vicious Advantage combos nice with this as well, giving you a very nice accuracy boost.

And on the topic of accuracy, the innate +1 to hit with all weapons the Knight gets cannot be underestimated.  It allows a greater deal of latitude with your stats, allowing you to build Knights with less-than-optimal races or arrays.  Since your defenses are based on armor (Plate+Heavy Shield), you don't need to burn a Feat and have a 16 Dex to make sure you're not getting hit.

Yes, 21 AC at first-level is nice, but there's a price to be paid for that.  As a Defender, you really want more than a 12-13 Con, even with Born Under A Bad Sign.  Defenders often do end up taking the lion's share of damage, so you want more than 9 healing surges, at least in low Heroic.  Later on, when healing gets better, that may change, but that's more dependant on what kind of Leader your party has.

Sure, high AC means you get hit less, but by the time a Knight gets +2 plate, your advantage will be gone, thanks to Masterwork Armor.  Sure, you can catch up with Elven Chain, but that's not cheap (especially since the Knight only needs Bracers of Mighty Striking, and you're going to want Iron Armbands, for example).

Now we can look at the various Power Strike Feats.  Once you take something like Hammer Strike, you can choose to daze when you punish, which, depending on what your enemy does, is sickening punishment.  Then at level 8, we tack on the Weapon Specialization bonus as well.  When your Power Strike can immobilize and daze, you've reached amazing levels of lockdown.

And I haven't even left Heroic Tier yet!  Don't get me wrong, I know a lot of DM's who will blanch at the idea of their precious monsters taking free hits from a Berserker, so I know the class can be effective and sticky, but a Knight can easily be built to deny entire enemy turns, as opposed to merely slapping them upside the head.  At Paragon, the Hammer Knight can add Rattling to all his attacks, making him and his allies less likely to be hit by attacks.  Maybe you can find a way to add Psychic Lock in there as well, and make the DM cry when you switch on Glowering Threat.

And then Epic...well, it's probably not worth discussing.  But if you're curious- Overwhelming Impact.  That is all.            

Again, I'm not arguing that the Berserker is the new best defender ever, only that it's a fully functional, competitive option.  The Knight is probably a little better, but the Berserker isn't far behind.  The Berserker is going to punish with damage as opposed to status effects, but with Run Down + WSG he can at least keep people close if they try to run away.  The Knight might get a +1 attack bonus, but the only build worth playing is the hammer build, which is an an inherent accuracy disadvantage anyways.  The +1 only closes the gap.  Healing surges will admittedly be a problem, but depending on your Fury tactics Berserk Vitality can easily soak enough damage to make up for that, and if you find yourself running out there's also Durable and/or Comrade's Succor.  Ultimately, while surges may limit the length of your adventuring day, they're not going to decrease your effectiveness while in combat (again, unless you run out, which you should take steps to avoid doing).  The Knight's MW armor advantage will vary depending on level; keep in mind that the Berserker will be raising Dex, and races with a Con bonus may qualify for Second Skin in Epic without sacrificing Dex.  Not to mention the fact that the Berserker has daily powers (which the Knight lacks), and is much more versatile thanks to Fury.

I don’t feel qualified to weigh in on the optimization capacity of the Berserker, but I will say that I am genuinely excited to give one a test drive.   This is the first book that’s been out in a long time that I want to commend wizards for. I really think they did a great job presenting new and varied options. They might not be the best options, but they do look very fun.

I'd like to second Palinmaz. I am genuinely excited for the Berserker, and i think Wizards did a great job with Heroes of the Feywild, hopefully they keep it up. 

Going to add to the general HotF=awesome stuff here.  The Witch is a bit of a dud, as is Tuathan, but aside from those slight iffinesses, everything's good, and I'm really looking foward to the chance to play a Berserker, in particular.

Nov 12, 2011 -- 10:03AM, palinmaz wrote:

They might not be the best options, but they do look very fun.

And that right there is the core of my approval standard. (:

Agreed. Heroes of the Feywild feels like what Essentials should have been like from the start. It has all the good concepts from before we've grown to love (martial AEDU, niche feats), and some excellent fresh air in the form of themes, the Skald, the Berserker's double-role mechanics, and so on. I'm honestly excited about Heroes of the Elemental Chaos now: if the same dev team is on board, I think we can be optimistic about the future.

Nov 11, 2011 -- 5:08PM, Dragvandil13 wrote:

As to Dr. badwolf

The at wills offer CA, Slow, push and slide (you push then shift into their square), and a poor mans pressing strike (You get the shift but not the push.)  all but the push and slide have 1/2/3d8 bonus when frenzied and it offers d6's. And your MBA gets D8's as well.

So they are as good as you think they are. Im a fan of all of them, even the poorer Pressing Strike. I rarely use pressing strike for the push (I could just bullrush for that) I use it for the shift. And in frenzy they offer much more umph then any of the other Atwill powers for barbs.

Cool. Good to know. I don't mind if they're second teir at both roles, honestly. The abillity to do both is helpful. Good that they aren't bad defenders, of course.

I can only speak from the Barbarian niche. And the Berserker is almost everything I could have hoped for. And it's one of those occasions where in retrospective I like what I got more then what I would have asked for. I do hope we get some more support for the guy, but as he is I still love him.