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2 years ago  ::  Nov 02, 2011 - 8:57AM #1
shagadm
Date Joined: Apr 10, 2011
Posts: 67

One of my players argues that to find the price of a used wand you use the following formula.


X= price of a fully charged wand, Z= How many charges it has left.


Used wand = (X/50)xZ.


Now I can see his logic about the math but this results in him buying several low lvl wands (1st lvl spells) with low charges (3-5-10) for prices like 45gp, 75gp and 150gp. He is now 4th lvl (Cleric 3/Wizard 1) and pretty much has about 20+ wands with all kinds of 1 st lvl spells. I have been DMing for quite some time now and this is the first time a see a caster with so much wands. I am not sure if he is more powerful or not but it seems weird. Are we playing this wrong??

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 02, 2011 - 10:56AM #2
StevenO
Date Joined: Apr 9, 2004
Posts: 14,077
I don't think you're playing things wrong EXCEPT you probably shouldn't make "used" wands readily available. 

When you're looking as such a low number of charges you are really looking at a situation where the character should be using SCROLLS except that a scroll cost more for each use than a single charge on a wand.  For example with most 1st-level spells a wand is 750 gp/15 gp per charge while a single scroll costs 25 gp; moving up to 4th-level spells a wand is 21000gp/420 gp per charge with a scroll costing 700 gp.  Pricing wands by the charge is basically turning them into scrolls at 40% off.

I know it is possible for the PCs to aquire a wand with fewer charges on it from a defeated opponent but I also seem to remember seeing that wands are always sold fully charged.  I guess that if I was going to make used wands available I'd still charge a high base price for a wand and then add a surcharge for the number of charges it has; something like a wand with one one charge is still half (or some other fraction) the price of a fully charged want.  This is to discourage allowing cheap wands to replace scrolls as the "emergency reserve" when you want a few spells available.
 
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2 years ago  ::  Nov 02, 2011 - 11:30AM #3
Tempest_Stormwind
Date Joined: Jun 20, 2004
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Nov 2, 2011 -- 10:56AM, StevenO wrote:

I don't think you're playing things wrong EXCEPT you probably shouldn't make "used" wands readily available.  




Seconding StevenO: The Magic Item Compendium suggests this, but usually only for NPCs or loot. They give "item levels" (price bands) for partially-charged wands, with the caveat that they probably shouldn't be "sold" and instead reflect loot-grade items used to round out NPC equipment or treasure. The calculations for price bands are consistent with the formula used here, for what it's worth.

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 02, 2011 - 12:04PM #4
Slagger_the_Chuul
Date Joined: May 26, 2001
Posts: 5,171
And I'll third partially-charged wands being uncommon in the market by adding the practical in-game angle.

Wands are made for spells that someone wants to use a lot, and they're inherently created with the full 50 charges.  Anyone who gets hold of a fully-charged wand with a helpful spell is typically going to use it until it runs out, rather than selling it while it still has some charges left.

So, while you might find the occasional wand for sale that just happened to have a few charges left when someone decided they wouldn't need that kind of magic anymore, most of them are kept and used by their owners until they run dry (at which point they become a different category of item known as a "stick" and are much more commonly available).
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2 years ago  ::  Nov 02, 2011 - 1:09PM #5
shagadm
Date Joined: Apr 10, 2011
Posts: 67

The player argued that at some point it becomes more effective to cast a spell than use a wand, because wands always use the lowest caster level and save DC possible (as per creating items on DMG). He also argued that at higher levels most casters use their high level spells for combat and leave the lower level spells for utility/buffs. So at level 10+ not many casters will carry 1st level wands. In addition certain wands are so common that it makes sense you could find a lot of used ones, for example cure light wands on a temple of healing.


Since the only limit on what you can find to buy in a city is the gold limit he proposed that each time he wants to buy a wand he will tell me the charges he is looking and I will roll 1d0+1 and add it to the charges he wanted. That will be the closest he found in the market. For example if he wanted a wand with 3 charges and I rolled 5+1=6, then the closest wand he founds is one with 9 charges.

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 02, 2011 - 1:30PM #6
StevenO
Date Joined: Apr 9, 2004
Posts: 14,077
It's funny that you mention a wand of cure light wounds.  That is an item you should NEVER be able to buy used.  I haven't done the math but I understand it to be one of the most cost effective (hp/gp) items available regardless of character level.  Groups of EPIC level characters still carry and buy those things.

There certainly are points where it is more effective to cast a spell than use a wand but in all honesty those are NOT the spells you are generally going to put into a wand anyway.  I will also point out that wands do NOT always use the lowest caster level possible (you can buy a wand of MM cast at 9th-level and a wand of fireballs at 10th for example) which can also be true of scrolls.  When it comes to saves I'll remind you that caster level has NOTHING to do with that DC although a higher level caster may have a higher casting stat or other things that would increase saves.

Your formula for determining the minimum number of charges on an available used wand also has problems.  I see 1d0+1 (is that supposed to be d10+1?) but the issue is that I could just change my request based on your formula.  If your formula averages a wand with six more charges than I ask for then I just reduce my request.  If you're pricing linearly based on charges a wand with only a single charge on it is still a bargain compared to a scroll with the same spell.  If you really want a random minimum number of charges on a given type of wand what the player wants shouldn't affect the outcome; I'd suggest d%/2 for the minimum number of charges for an available wand of a given type IF I was going to do used wands.
   
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2 years ago  ::  Nov 02, 2011 - 7:05PM #7
draco1119
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Date Joined: Sep 25, 2005
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Nov 2, 2011 -- 1:09PM, shagadm wrote:

The player argued that...certain wands are so common that it makes sense you could find a lot of used ones...


This is the only thing correct about what your player argued.  There are certain types of wands that you should be able to find used.  Not buy.

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 02, 2011 - 10:12PM #8
Phrennzy
Date Joined: Oct 10, 2002
Posts: 670

Nov 2, 2011 -- 1:09PM, shagadm wrote:


Since the only limit on what you can find to buy in a city is the gold limit he proposed that each time he wants to buy a wand he will tell me the charges he is looking and I will roll 1d0+1 and add it to the charges he wanted. That will be the closest he found in the market. For example if he wanted a wand with 3 charges and I rolled 5+1=6, then the closest wand he founds is one with 9 charges.




And you tell him "No. That is not how we will do it." 

I could see maybe an occasional partially charged wand for sale, but still have it a rare occurance.

Remember that if HE wants them so badly, so does every other spell caster out there.  It's supply vs demand.   If you were a low level caster, wouldn't you peruse the magic shops or YeBay for used wands in the hopes of paying only 75gp for 5 charges of burning hands (at 1st level), instead of forking out 750gp for something you won't use for very long?  That 1d4 fan of flames at 1st and even 2nd level is worthwhile, but after that its worthless.

Every low level caster would be snatching up the good stuff.  The crap wands of Jump, Reduce Person, and Erase would be all that's left in the bargain bin.  He better make friends with the magic shop owner or the mage guild or whomever.  He's not the only coin purse in town.  

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 03, 2011 - 7:35AM #9
Reyor-Tsed
Date Joined: Nov 3, 2011
Posts: 13

"I can go on with an elaborate example as to why cheap partially charged wands are common in the market but let’s just say it’s a supply vs demand issue. There is a demand from low level casters for extra spells per day and since masterwork weapons (300gp) or masterwork armor (150gp++) is worthless to them they have to find something else to spend their gold. Scrolls are their first obvious option but wands, if they can be provided partially charged, are an even better solution, especially for sorcerers and clerics (wizard can use scrolls to increase their known spells in their spellbook). I can see myself paying up to 20gp per charge for a partially charged wand thus making it profitable for higher level characters to sell their partially charged wands and buy a fully charged one, at list until I have enough gold to begin buying fully charged wands as well. At which time I will start selling my partially charged wands for profit creating a circle that eventually will drop the prices to 15gp per charge.


If the argument is that a character with partially wands will be unbalanced let me point that except from an uncomfortable feeling the DM has when I walk around with 20+ wands, the game hasn’t got any problems. In fact it has helped the game since we don’t have to stop and rest every time I run out of spells (at 1st – 4th lvl that’s after 3 encounters tops), instead we continue until an appropriate moment for rest occurs."

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2 years ago  ::  Nov 03, 2011 - 11:10AM #10
Slagger_the_Chuul
Date Joined: May 26, 2001
Posts: 5,171

Nov 3, 2011 -- 7:35AM, Reyor-Tsed wrote:

I can see myself paying up to 20gp per charge for a partially charged wand thus making it profitable for higher level characters to sell their partially charged wands and buy a fully charged one, at list until I have enough gold to begin buying fully charged wands as well. At which time I will start selling my partially charged wands for profit creating a circle that eventually will drop the prices to 15gp per charge.


The "circle" involves either continually selling partially charged wands at 20 gp/charge (which actually makes sense), or eventually dropping the sale price to 15 gp/charge, at which point people stop selling them because they don't make any money by doing so.

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Co-Author of the Dreamfane, Euralden Eye, Gajuisan Crawler, Gruesome Lurker, Fulminating Crab, Ironglass Rose, Sheengrass Swarm, Spryjack, Usunag, and Warp Drifter, and author of the Magmal Horror from Force of Nature.


= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience. Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness.  It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end.  Each button produces a different effect when pressed.  Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed.
        When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle.
        When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets.
        When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall.
        When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade.
        When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid.  Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water.
If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours.
    Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
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