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2 years ago ::
Nov 02, 2011 - 8:16AM
#1
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As the title asks. I always try to put at least a 10 in int for RP reasons yet so many min-maxed builds put int at 8. Thus, I am wondering, do people like RPing really dumb characters or is 4e's definition of 8 int different from the way 8 int was defined in the 3.5e era? I remember back in the 3.5e era 8 int was considered "mentally disabled" and in Neverwinter Nights, which was based on 3.0-3.5e putting an 8(or less) in int made it so your character spoke in "thog speak."(Aka 'FIGHTER SMASH!!" type talking.) However, a lot of the people who I have met that play 4e put 8 int on their rogues and clerics for Min-Max reasons mainly and it makes me wonder how they get away with not RPing them as low-int to the point of disability(for seirous RPers) or "thog speak" idocy(for the RPers who gravitate towards tropes/cliche's or those that don't care much for RPing.)
So, my question is simple: Just how dumb is 8 int in 4e?
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2 years ago ::
Nov 02, 2011 - 8:16AM
#2
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Date Joined:
May 13, 2009
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However dumb or smart you want it to be.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 02, 2011 - 8:38AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Dec 27, 2008
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I would not get too hung up on it. Personally I interpret 8 INT to mean that it might take you a little bit longer to work through complex thoughts, not that you are actually stupid. Just a little slow, like that friend you know who smoked way too much pot in high school but is still perfectly capable.
If you are really hung up on it for whatever reason (I know some groups pay strict attention to these things), I think that "disabled" is probably way too strong a word. Supposedly 10 is average. If 10 is average, then something like 50% of the population of the Forgotten Realms are disabled in some way. Plus that would mean that 12 is gifted. If 12 is gifted, what the hell is an 18? Obsessing over these things will just get you twisted into knots.
A character with 8 strength is slightly disadvantaged in the strength department. The same should be true of INT. Otherwise you would have 8 WIS characters sticking their tongues in light sockets and 8 dexterity characters who could barely walk. That gets so silly so fast you might as well be playing Straights & Stooges. Mechanically -1 is a negligiable disadvantage so I would treat it the same for RP. (If you want to get really technical, -1 is 5% less than 0, so I guess if average IQ is 100, that would mean that an 8 INT character has a 95 IQ, which is still average. But again, I recommend not getting hung up on it.)
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2 years ago ::
Nov 02, 2011 - 8:44AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Nov 27, 2005
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If 10 is average, 8 being mentally disabled seems like a pretty huge leap [Insert joke about the intelligence of the "average person", everybody laugh, roll on snare drum, curtain]. By that logic, 12 int is like Stephen Hawking level, and all these 20 Int Wizards we got running around know everything about everything that will ever be (I mean, yeah, they're pretty knowledgeable, but my extrapolations suggests more along the lines of being able to immediately deduce the location of the BBEG, what allergies he has, and developing the perfect plan to poison him all in the first 30 seconds of the campaign, which of course makes for a pretty turrble story).
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I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul:
Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?"
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Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb."
Me: "*Sigh*. Okay."
I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board.
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Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 02, 2011 - 9:22AM
#5
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So, could I have an 8 int character who, say, excelled/was very smart in a specific area of intrest but totally inept in all others? Or say an 8 int character who was exceptionally cunning, shrewed and manipulative but for some reason just dose not excell in acdemics?(This kind of character I'd expect to be high wis and high-cha, though I'm not sure how much cha and wis would be needed for this.)
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2 years ago ::
Nov 02, 2011 - 9:37AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Mar 11, 2004
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I would see it along the lines of Forrest Gump. Slow and naive, but still able to function normally in a society. Also the family from The Castle, if you have seen it, would be a good example.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 02, 2011 - 9:58AM
#7
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So, could I have an 8 int character who, say, excelled/was very smart in a specific area of intrest but totally inept in all others? Or say an 8 int character who was exceptionally cunning, shrewed and manipulative but for some reason just dose not excell in acdemics?(This kind of character I'd expect to be high wis and high-cha, though I'm not sure how much cha and wis would be needed for this.)
Yes. Like pretty much everything in 4e, ability scores are abstract. (Heck, Intelligence is pretty damned abstract and immeasurable in real life, anyway.) You may be absolutely brilliant, but without a lot of actual book-learning (which is why your Knowledge checks tend to come up poor). Or, with your example, perhaps the reason he doesn't excel in academics is because he's so cunning, shrewd, and manipulative he never had to study hard; he got other people to do his work for him.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 02, 2011 - 10:04AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Dec 27, 2008
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So, could I have an 8 int character who, say, excelled/was very smart in a specific area of intrest but totally inept in all others? Or say an 8 int character who was exceptionally cunning, shrewed and manipulative but for some reason just dose not excell in acdemics?(This kind of character I'd expect to be high wis and high-cha, though I'm not sure how much cha and wis would be needed for this.)
The ability scores define what kind of advantage your character gets in certain areas, not what he knows.
Think of intelligence as mental dexterity. A high intelligence character has a nimble mind that adapts quickly to new information, that processes and reacts with blinding speed compared to a low INT character. A low INT character receives no advantage from intelligence because it takes them too long to work through difficult or complex problems. Instead they rely on other abilities to compensate. A low INT character can still be very well educated and their knowledge and perspective can still be valuable assets to the party.
I think Forrest Gump might still be a little slower than I would consider for an 8, but it's a good example of a character who is slow but not necessarily stupid. When Forrest works at something, he can eventually figure it out and understand it as well as anybody else, but because he has to work harder and it takes him longer he inevitable falls behind.
Shrewed and cunning, like most words that describe a person's mental faculties, are too imprecise to tell us exactly which ability score best represents that character's skills. It would depend on how that cunning manifests itself. If the character can calculate the odds of success for an elaborate and dangerous plan in minutes, then it would be Intelligence. If the character could plot the perfect bank robbery if he had a week to work out the details, then it is probably normal intelligence but high wisdom. If the character can manipulate anybody around them to put them in the perfect position for a promotion, it would be high charisma. Of course even moreso than physical abilities the mental abilities are abstractions, so no description will be perfectly accurate.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 02, 2011 - 10:06AM
#9
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Yeah, I agree. Forest is probally too slow an example. He was certainly high-wis, but from what I remember of the film was also "mentally disabled", and since the general concencessous is that 8 int is not in the disabled range Forest would probally be lower then that. As for shrewed and cunning, I meant able to trick people well and come up with sound, generally flaw-free(or if flawed the flaws are minor) plans. Basicly your typical evil mastermind type of thing. Making sound schemes and using people and events to your advantage. I think a good example from media for this kind of thing would be the typical high school queen bee/popular snob that you see in so many teenage dramas and such. She's probally not the top of the class acdemicly, but she knows how to read people and use them for her own ends. I mean that kind of cunning. Able to read people and events and twist them to your advantage, and make good evil plots(with prep time). Not making split second calculations or anything like that.
Likewise, could you also have an 8-int character who actually had a lot of potentinal inteligence/is actaully brilliant but has some kind of learning disability or other impediment that makes reasoning and learning exceptionally harder for them then the average person?
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2 years ago ::
Nov 02, 2011 - 12:31PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Dec 27, 2008
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As for shrewed and cunning, I meant able to trick people well and come up with sound, generally flaw-free(or if flawed the flaws are minor) plans. Basicly your typical evil mastermind type of thing. Making sound schemes and using people and events to your advantage. I think a good example from media for this kind of thing would be the typical high school queen bee/popular snob that you see in so many teenage dramas and such. She's probally not the top of the class acdemicly, but she knows how to read people and use them for her own ends. I mean that kind of cunning. Able to read people and events and twist them to your advantage, and make good evil plots(with prep time). Not making split second calculations or anything like that.
Depending on the Queen Bee's characterization, she might be really intelligent but simply have different priorities. Popularity affords her more of an immediate advantage than academics so that's where she expends her effort. In most cases, though, I think the Queen Bee has exceptionally high charisma and may or may not have high intelligence. In my interpretation of 8 INT, and 8 INT Bee is possible but she would probably get tripped up by a more ambitious Bee eventually.
Likewise, could you also have an 8-int character who actually had a lot of potentinal inteligence/is actaully brilliant but has some kind of learning disability or other impediment that makes reasoning and learning exceptionally harder for them then the average person?
Well the ability scores factor in so many things that they can only really reflect effective intelligence, not potential intelligence, if that answers your question. I'm not really sure I understand what you are getting at, though. Are you referring to something like dyslexia? I think an 8 intelligence would be a fine way to represent dyslexia but I honestly don't feel like something like that needs any mechanical representation unless you really want it.
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you loads
