|
2 years ago ::
Oct 28, 2011 - 12:07PM
#1
|
|
|
With the new Monk article which came out this weak, there is a Monk MC feat which gives you the Monk Unarmed Combatant class feature. What I want to know, is can you use the unarmed combatant "weapon" on both hands? So, you are essentially dual-wielding Monk Unarmed Combatant weapons?
I have a tempest fighter than currently uses Spiked Gauntlets and I want to use this MC feat and just have dual Unarmed Combatant weapons wielded. Is this "by the book"?
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Oct 28, 2011 - 2:02PM
#2
|
Date Joined:
Oct 26, 2008
|
Yes. I have a monk build(not recent, but still) and I left him with only the unarmed strike and took the two-weapon feats, and they work just fine.
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Oct 28, 2011 - 2:03PM
#3
|
Date Joined:
Jun 20, 2009
|
It appears that by RAW the answer is no. Monk Unarmed Combatant says that "when you make a weapon attack, you can use the monk unarmed strike." It says nothing about using the monk unarmed strike for any other purposes, so when you aren't making an attack, you're not wielding anything.
That said, Monk Unarmed Strike only requires that you have a free hand: spiked gauntlets expliticitly leave your hands free while being wielded. This means you can wear spiked gauntlets to keep your two-weapon defense active, while using Monk Unarmed Strike for all your attacks.
Now, whether or not you can act as if you're dual-wielding MUSs for the purposes of attacks that require you to be using two weapons or for your Tempest Tech attack and damage bonuses, that's debatable, but I'd say yes. Those bonuses are only relevant while you are making an attack, and while you are making an attack you can be wielding a MUS in each free hand.
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Oct 28, 2011 - 3:34PM
#4
|
Date Joined:
Sep 29, 2010
|
It appears that by RAW the answer is no. Monk Unarmed Combatant says that "when you make a weapon attack, you can use the monk unarmed strike." It says nothing about using the monk unarmed strike for any other purposes, so when you aren't making an attack, you're not wielding anything.
That said, Monk Unarmed Strike only requires that you have a free hand: spiked gauntlets expliticitly leave your hands free while being wielded. This means you can wear spiked gauntlets to keep your two-weapon defense active, while using Monk Unarmed Strike for all your attacks.
Now, whether or not you can act as if you're dual-wielding MUSs for the purposes of attacks that require you to be using two weapons or for your Tempest Tech attack and damage bonuses, that's debatable, but I'd say yes. Those bonuses are only relevant while you are making an attack, and while you are making an attack you can be wielding a MUS in each free hand.
Interesting. So, a swordmage can use a spiked gauntlet, take two weapon fighting for +1 damage, take two weapon defnse for + AC and Ref, and still benefit from the higher defense value of their shield because the off hand is still empty.
That would be a long way to go for +1 defense especially since the +1 damage doesn't scale with tier. The defense is still nice at epic but the +1 damage is pretty pointless at that point.
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Oct 28, 2011 - 7:22PM
#5
|
|
|
When you make a weapon attack such as a melee basic attack. you can use the monk unarmed strike, which is a weapon in the unarmed weapon group. This weapon has the off-hand weapon property and a +3 proficiency bonus, and it deals 1d8 damage. You must have a hand free to use your monk unarmed strike, even if you're kicking, kneeing, elbowing, or headbutting a target.
The description doesn't specify that it's a one-handed or two-handed weapon, just that it's a "weapon" and you must have a hand free; then you are "armed" with Monk Unarmed Strike.
I don't see how you can get further "armed" by having both hands free, (especially with the accompanying text -- "My left hand is kneeing and my right hand is headbutting.")
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Oct 29, 2011 - 8:36PM
#6
|
Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2003
|
When you make a weapon attack such as a melee basic attack. you can use the monk unarmed strike, which is a weapon in the unarmed weapon group. This weapon has the off-hand weapon property and a +3 proficiency bonus, and it deals 1d8 damage. You must have a hand free to use your monk unarmed strike, even if you're kicking, kneeing, elbowing, or headbutting a target.
The description doesn't specify that it's a one-handed or two-handed weapon, just that it's a "weapon" and you must have a hand free; then you are "armed" with Monk Unarmed Strike.
I don't see how you can get further "armed" by having both hands free, (especially with the accompanying text -- "My left hand is kneeing and my right hand is headbutting.")
On the other hand, why not? There is no definitive ruling either way, I suppose.
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Oct 30, 2011 - 1:14AM
#7
|
|
|
The rules don't directly support the OP's suggestion, although there is no explicit ruling out of the option. That is not an uncommon situation when looking at edge cases which result from multi-classing.
The only problem I have with the OP's suggestion is that the end result may well be numerically superior to any other combination of weapons possible with Tempest Technique. For the cost of one MC feat, the OP may have defined a "best" option for the build. Having a single "best" option is not a good situation for character building. As DM, I would normally bar anything without explicit rules support on those grounds (with maybe an exception if the class and style was normally considered quite weak)
Going from spiked gauntlets to unarmed combat will upgrade you from +2 prof/1d6 to +3 prof/1d8, with the possibility of a further feat that would make that +3 prof/1d10. In combination with Tempest Technique both main and off-hand attacks get a further +1 to hit and +2 damage.
If someone could suggest some other configurations that equal this, then if I were DM I'd be more inclined to ignore the lack of rules support. I would consider something with similar damage output, or an equally felicitous use of the MC feat for an alternate build.
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Oct 30, 2011 - 4:49AM
#8
|
|
|
The rules don't directly support the OP's suggestion, although there is no explicit ruling out of the option. That is not an uncommon situation when looking at edge cases which result from multi-classing.
The only problem I have with the OP's suggestion is that the end result may well be numerically superior to any other combination of weapons possible with Tempest Technique. For the cost of one MC feat, the OP may have defined a "best" option for the build. Having a single "best" option is not a good situation for character building. As DM, I would normally bar anything without explicit rules support on those grounds (with maybe an exception if the class and style was normally considered quite weak)
Going from spiked gauntlets to unarmed combat will upgrade you from +2 prof/1d6 to +3 prof/1d8, with the possibility of a further feat that would make that +3 prof/1d10. In combination with Tempest Technique both main and off-hand attacks get a further +1 to hit and +2 damage.
If someone could suggest some other configurations that equal this, then if I were DM I'd be more inclined to ignore the lack of rules support. I would consider something with similar damage output, or an equally felicitous use of the MC feat for an alternate build.
Why stop as 1d10? With Shock Trooper, the Monk Unarmed Strike with Improved Unarmed Strike has a damage die of 1d12.
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Oct 30, 2011 - 6:07AM
#9
|
Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2006
|
The rules don't directly support the OP's suggestion, although there is no explicit ruling out of the option. That is not an uncommon situation when looking at edge cases which result from multi-classing.
The only problem I have with the OP's suggestion is that the end result may well be numerically superior to any other combination of weapons possible with Tempest Technique. For the cost of one MC feat, the OP may have defined a "best" option for the build. Having a single "best" option is not a good situation for character building. As DM, I would normally bar anything without explicit rules support on those grounds (with maybe an exception if the class and style was normally considered quite weak)
Going from spiked gauntlets to unarmed combat will upgrade you from +2 prof/1d6 to +3 prof/1d8, with the possibility of a further feat that would make that +3 prof/1d10. In combination with Tempest Technique both main and off-hand attacks get a further +1 to hit and +2 damage.
If someone could suggest some other configurations that equal this, then if I were DM I'd be more inclined to ignore the lack of rules support. I would consider something with similar damage output, or an equally felicitous use of the MC feat for an alternate build.
While the proficiency and damage die are nice...that is ALL there is to it. The unarmed weapon group has no other support to speak of, so light blades are still going to be king of the hill for tempest fighters looking for damage. Spending 2 feats for the best version of the WORST weapon group isn't all that special.
By comparison, spiked chain training, which also costs your MC, gives you a +3/2d4 double light blade/flail w/reach. While it doesn't benefit specifically from tempest style except on the off-hand side, the other qualities blow monk unarmed strike out of the water. A Weapon Talent fighter with the spiked chain will be doing so much more than the unarmed tempest. Even a tempest dual wielding punching daggers will be more capable (just with a smaller [W] die).
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Oct 30, 2011 - 8:58AM
#10
|
Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
|
It's worth it for a Brawler if you ever want to do useful damage. It's the only way to get +3 proficiency for unarmed attacks.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
|
|
|
