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2 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2011 - 10:54AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2004
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Why can a Paladin with a, for example, Strength and Constitution of 10 use Plate armour, but anyone else wishing to train in such has to have a 15 str and con? That never made sense to me.
And why don't Fighters get plate for free as they did in AD&D 2e? What of those wanting to play a heavily armoured fighter-type but who don't want to be a paladin-type? It almost seems unfair to tell them they need to blow a feat just to get plate.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2011 - 10:58AM
#2
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Date Joined:
May 13, 2009
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Mechanics. Paladins don't need to be strong so forcing them to pick 15 str/con (which does very little for them unless they wish to be a Strength-Paladin and Con is useless entirely) just to be able to wear the armor they need to not get their ass handed to them is a bit straightjacketing and unfun.
Not sure why Fighters don't get Plate; probably because they're generally more of a "take a beating, but hit hard" rather then "impenetrable wall of defenses" kind of character. They have slightly lower defenses but compensate by bringing more hitting power to the battlefield.
Note also that Scale is "heavily armoured" for all intents and purposes. Plate is merely "even more heavily armored".
Epic Dungeon Master Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen! Your Kingdom awaits!Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2011 - 11:03AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2004
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Mechanics.
Meta-game mechanics you mean? Elsewise, the armour is no heavier for a fighter than a paladin.
Note also that Scale is "heavily armoured" for all intents and purposes. Plate is merely "even more heavily armored".
Personally I think plate looks better than scale. So if I had a warrior, for example, and blew a feat on plate I'd likely be at disadvantage. I imagine the game mechanics allow a fighter to do perfectly well without plate. So if I spend the feat just to wear it, right off the bat I'm disadvantaging myself relative to other fighters of the same leve.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2011 - 11:14AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2005
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So if I had a warrior, for example, and blew a feat on plate I'd likely be at disadvantage.
What disadvantage? You spent a feat for more AC. There are far worse feats out there, and it's not like you even have to go out of your way to qualify for it as a Fighter because you probably already have 15 STR and CON anyway.
Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TMSpeaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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2 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2011 - 11:21AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2004
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So if I had a warrior, for example, and blew a feat on plate I'd likely be at disadvantage.
What disadvantage? You spent a feat for more AC. There are far worse feats out there, and it's not like you even have to go out of your way to qualify for it as a Fighter because you probably already have 15 STR and CON anyway.
I assume the Fighter class is built in such a way that they don't need to rely upon plate (ie: the fithter and paladians are equally good at being defenders)? Presuming this is the case, imagine two fighters both leveling to the same level. One takes an min-maxing (expected) feat for his class. The other takes a feat just so he can use plate. The first is still his equal as a Defender (he doesn't need plate to be as good), plus now he's up by 1 feat (the second having spent a feat on something he really didn't need).
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2 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2011 - 11:29AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2005
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I assume the Fighter class is built in such a way that they don't need to rely upon plate?
The Paladin doesn't need to rely upon Plate either. It's just a nice bonus. Though I guess to be fair, Fighters do get CON as a secondary ability score while Paladins do not.
One takes an min-maxing (expected) feat for his class. The other takes a feat just so he can use plate.
Spending one feat on a thematic concern rather than a mechanical concern is not going to ruin your character. If you want to take Plate proficiency, then take it. You will be fine.
Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TMSpeaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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2 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2011 - 11:43AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2004
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Though I guess to be fair, Fighters do get CON as a secondary ability score while Paladins do not.
That doesn't affect anything though does it? Its just a suggestion for the player to put emphasis in CON because the character has skills that depend upon it?
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2 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2011 - 11:45AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jan 27, 2010
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The problem is that you're expecting the rules to make logical sense. I agree with you that fighters should have access to all armor types without the need for a feat. The problem is that 4e has ignored simulated armor and weapon rules in favor of gamest centric mechanics. Personally, I would rather have a weapon and armor system that is based on real world simulation than what we have now.
The other issue this outlines is the ridiculous number of feats in 4e. There are over 8000 feats in 4e many of which never get used and only waste ink and paper. Of course feats are a 3e concept that I never liked to begin with. It is such a shame that 4e continued in that direction.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2011 - 11:53AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2004
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The problem is that you're expecting the rules to make logical sense.
Agreed.
Am I the only person who stops and asks, "WTH!?"
I agree with you that fighters should have access to all armor types without the need for a feat. The problem is that 4e has ignored simulated armor and weapon rules in favor of gamest centric mechanics. Personally, I would rather have a weapon and armor system that is based on real world simulation than what we have now.
The other issue this outlines is the ridiculous number of feats in 4e. There are over 8000 feats in 4e many of which never get used and only waste ink and paper. Of course feats are a 3e concept that I never liked to begin with. It is such a shame that 4e continued in that direction.
I've been toying with just playing AD&D 2e, but heavily modifying it with rules I like from 4e. For example higher starting health, and non-random hit point gains at level up. And I like the new paladin better than the 2e paladin. Although I'm not big on either. I see a Paladin as a character who just does the correct moral thing, always tells the truth (even to enemies), doesn't use trickery, etc. But otherwise binding them to lawfulness (2e) seems silly.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 16, 2011 - 11:54AM
#10
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Date Joined:
May 13, 2009
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Though I guess to be fair, Fighters do get CON as a secondary ability score while Paladins do not.
That doesn't affect anything though does it? Its just a suggestion for the player to put emphasis in CON because the character has skills that depend upon it?
Many Fighter powers use Con for their effect, so it's really worthwhile as a Fighter to have good Con, especially if you're going Axe or Hammer style. Paladins on the other hand don't have any powers that use Con, theirs use Cha, Str and Wis.
So it's more then a suggestion. Also, getting Plate doesn't actually hurt. You get more defense, which is entirely what you wanted. If you don't get Plate, you get something different. Not neccesarily something better.
Personally, I would rather have a weapon and armor system that is based on real world simulation than what we have now.
Oh yeah, a system where Fighters get proficiency in one set of armor and two weapons of their choice, because that's more or less the extent of training most of them had, anyway.
Then again, the Feat system already simulates this by making most people really effective with only one of two weapons anyway.
Epic Dungeon Master Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen! Your Kingdom awaits!Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
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