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2 years ago ::
Oct 19, 2011 - 2:35PM
#181
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
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Min/Maxing is not encouraged by roles, but by players who see roles as a reason to min/max. 
Also, if the Paladin wants a spear, I say the paladin should get to weild a spear.
So basically, 5th Ed has some work to do: focus within classes (less homogenisation etc...mass AEDU fans are going to have a field-day with this).
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2 years ago ::
Oct 19, 2011 - 2:36PM
#182
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2004
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Min/Maxing is an accepted and encuraged part of 4e. The system was designed to allow for this.
Taken to an extreme, min/maxing means you've little to no choice in feats etc. Taken to an extreme, you must pick the perfect combination of skills/weapons/feats etc. So for example if I wanted to use a spear with my paladin, extreme min/maxing would not allow me to do so dictating that to be really effective I need a shield.
Your example of the paladin is exactly how my group used to play 2e. We designed our characters out of a role playing concept. I can recal one player who always gave up his gold and magical items to his church. Another would refuse to use magical items simply because his character feared magic. We focused more on the non-combat aspects of the game and on role playing than on how well we contributed to combat. For us combat was just a means to an end and not the primary focus of the game as it is now. Sadly this is what happens when a system redefines the term 'role' to mean something that is purely mechanical.
This is how I like to play.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 19, 2011 - 2:39PM
#183
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Min/Maxing is an accepted and encuraged part of 4e. The system was designed to allow for this.
Taken to an extreme, min/maxing means you've little to no choice in feats etc. Taken to an extreme, you must pick the perfect combination of skills/weapons/feats etc. So for example if I wanted to use a spear with my paladin, extreme min/maxing would not allow me to do so dictating that to be really effective I need a shield.
Your example of the paladin is exactly how my group used to play 2e. We designed our characters out of a role playing concept. I can recal one player who always gave up his gold and magical items to his church. Another would refuse to use magical items simply because his character feared magic. We focused more on the non-combat aspects of the game and on role playing than on how well we contributed to combat. For us combat was just a means to an end and not the primary focus of the game as it is now. Sadly this is what happens when a system redefines the term 'role' to mean something that is purely mechanical.
This is how I like to play.
And 4e supports that perfectly.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 19, 2011 - 2:39PM
#184
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2004
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Not particularly. Being a defender isn't just sucking up hits. You have to be able to deal enough damage to be a threat, otherwise people will just ignore you. We had a Paladin swinging a Mordenkrad in a game for 5 levels, and she was AWESOME.
But if a spear does no more damage than a sword which you would wield with a shield, for example, then using the sword and shield is more logical.
Please note in a past example I said I want to use my spear 2 handed.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 19, 2011 - 2:50PM
#185
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I did, in fact, note that.
I said 'enough damage to be a threat', not 'OMFG LOOK AT ALL THE DICES I THREW'. And spears have lots of nice other tricks involving pushing, sliding, reach, and opportunity attacks that can make them very appealing to a defender.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 19, 2011 - 2:53PM
#186
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2007
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Min/Maxing is not encouraged by roles, but by players who see roles as a reason to min/max.
I partially agree. On the other hand calling the Paladin a defender implies that he is well geared to defend the party. Giving up a shield at a whim of want to wield a spear [2 handed] might very well be seen as oppositional, at least in part, to defending well.
Not at all. The "Defender's dilemna" is how to have a high enough AC to not die, but still be a reasonable target for the monsters. If your AC is too high, then the monsters will see that they will still have an easier time of hitting your allies, Mark or no Mark, and then you aren't "defending" anything. You are just inflicting an extra 4-8 damage a turn. Go, you!
In such a case, losing 2 AC from not haivng a shield and picking up Greatspear isn't such a bad idea. And it also allows you to engage your Sanctioned enemies without being adjacent to them.
Kev:
Your "High Int / Low Str" Fighter from the previous edition would be better realized as a Warlord in 4E. It sounds like you played the character as if he were a 4E Warlord. Now there are mechanics that fit your vision. Bravo! 
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2 years ago ::
Oct 19, 2011 - 2:54PM
#187
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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If you want a Fighter with high INT, play a Warlord. That's basically exactly what it is. Just erase the word "Warlord" and write "Fighter". A tactical warlord can emphasize int over str, and is the reason Eladrin make such fantastic taclords even with no str bonus.
It's best to come up with a character concept, and then find the class that best fits it. Don't get hung up on class names. They're just a label.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 19, 2011 - 3:08PM
#188
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It's best to come up with a character concept, and then find the class that best fits it. Don't get hung up on class names. They're just a label.
This.
(also feat names, power names, equipment names ..)
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 19, 2011 - 3:11PM
#189
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Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2008
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Min/Maxing is not encouraged by roles, but by players who see roles as a reason to min/max.
Also, if the Paladin wants a spear, I say the paladin should get to weild a spear.
So basically, 5th Ed has some work to do: focus within classes (less homogenisation etc...mass AEDU fans are going to have a field-day with this).
Huh? Where on earth are you getting that? What does the wonderful AEDU (or as it probably will be, AERU) have to do with making a paladin weild a spear? I mean, besides possibly making spear specific powers, of one so feels one needs them.
Also, try the Longspear or Greatspear, Adrian. +2 or +3 prof, 1d10 damage, Reach. Better than the simple weapon spear. Longspear is totally kosher for the paly by default, the Greatspear takes training; not sure it's worth it for +1 more in proficiency, but there ya go.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- )Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition.Salla: opinionated, but commonly right. fun quotes
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You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?
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2 years ago ::
Oct 19, 2011 - 3:25PM
#190
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2008
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I'd like to second the notions listed above (don't get hung up on names, and defenders don't need to use a shield).
The names thing can't be stressed enough. As Samrin said, think of a concept first, and then find the class that fits best.
As for Defenders, my wife plays a Warden with a mordenkrad and loves every minute of it. The rest of the party love it too, and she can certainly still be a defender. As she puts it, "The shield doesn't help you mark things, but smacking something for tons of damage tends to make it mad at you, marked or not."
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