I never played 4ed and will probably never for reasons I have explained elsewhere, but I am curious so I ask to old-timers, who played previous editon: Is 4ed less broken than previous editions ? (we all remember Pun-Pun).
I've played Basic D&D, both eds of AD&D, 3.0, 3.5, 4e and Essentials. And, yes, 4e is certainly the best-balanced, most playable, least 'broken' version of the game to date. More broadly, the game has been developing over time, /generally/ getting better with each new edition (concurrent editions, like AD&D/BECMI or 4e/Essentials are more debateable).
"Oh no, it's a kobold army! Johnny, cast fireball! Timmy... go play PSP while Johnny takes care of things."
By balancing the classes, the newest edition of the game has become the "Windows Vista" of the D&D series.
Amazing aside from requiring far more processing power than the average computer is capable of due to some overly optimistic estimates?
Here, lets give everyone the same character, the same powers, the same magic items, the same everything, except, lets just change the fluff behind all of the powers and items so that they "appear" to be different. Yeah, that'll work, that'll make for lots of interesting characters.
Wrong.
Indeed. Good thing 4th is nothing like that.
Zammm = Batman. Bronies unite. "I'd call you a genius, but I'm in the room." It's my sig in a boxShow
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul:
Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay."
I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board.
Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other BarryShow
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic , giving you time to set up your silly combo . Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster...
Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil.
And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_...
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
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...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right?
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players.
And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it.
He/It got me with Light of Sanction , which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad , things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed .
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
No, that's a good thing, because it means everybody can contribute instead of the spellcasters doing EVERYTHING while the non-casters are relegated to being their pack mules.
If the non-spellcasters in other editions weren't contributing? Then I'm sorry, they were just doing it wrong.
Because this ISN'T a board game. It ISN'T a miniture war-game (despite its roots & heavy reliance upon combat systems). Nor is it a computer game. It's a Role-Playing Game. Where you & several others are all telling a shared story. Wich means, regardless of what race/class/stats you've chosen, as long as you can use your brain/imagination? You've got options.
So if you're a non-4e non-spellcaster & all you can think of is to say "I hit it with my axe"? Then you're doing it wrong.
Will any of my Fighters ever be remembered for doing 752+ pts of area damage? Turning time inside out? Morphing into a T-Rex? Or any # of other crazy caster tricks? Admittedly, NO. Or at least not likely. But they WILL BE remembered. And remembered because they A) contributed positively to the game/story/encounters - with or without their axe, & B) because I made sure that they were interesting characters. They will not ever be remembered as "useless".
No, that's a good thing, because it means everybody can contribute instead of the spellcasters doing EVERYTHING while the non-casters are relegated to being their pack mules.
If the non-spellcasters in other editions weren't contributing? Then I'm sorry, they were just doing it wrong.
Because this ISN'T a board game. It ISN'T a miniture war-game (despite its roots & heavy reliance upon combat systems). Nor is it a computer game. It's a Role-Playing Game. Where you & several others are all telling a shared story. Wich means, regardless of what race/class/stats you've chosen, as long as you can use your brain/imagination? You've got options.
So if you're a non-4e non-spellcaster & all you can think of is to say "I hit it with my axe"? Then you're doing it wrong.
Will any of my Fighters ever be remembered for doing 752+ pts of area damage? Turning time inside out? Morphing into a T-Rex? Or any # of other crazy caster tricks? Admittedly, NO. Or at least not likely. But they WILL BE remembered. And remembered because they A) contributed positively to the game/story/encounters - with or without their axe, & B) because I made sure that they were interesting characters. They will not ever be remembered as "useless".
Characters should be balanced, not made grossly more or less powerful based on their choice of power source.
No. Wrong. Characters should be FUN. This may or may not include "balance".
Your fighter can now do epic things out of movies or such, not just 'I hit'.
And Balance is actually a part of the fun for me. THis is a game you said, not a novel. It is bad when just one set of classes or such hoag all the glory and the others are weakscauce 'ahahah, you newbs'.
No. Wrong. Characters should be FUN. This may or may not include "balance".
Sorry, you're wrong. No real reason, I just chose a better class than you, so I automatically win any arguments. Isn't lack of balance an absolute gas?
Zammm = Batman. Bronies unite. "I'd call you a genius, but I'm in the room." It's my sig in a boxShow
Funny story: InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game. I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul:
Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?" Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy." Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb." Me: "*Sigh*. Okay."
I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board.
Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious.
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other BarryShow
And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic , giving you time to set up your silly combo . Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
ArtVenn You're still one of my favorite people... just sayin'.
You... You... Evil something... I actualy made the damn char once I saw the poster...
Now you made me see it again and I gained resolve to put it into my campaign. Shell be high standing oficial of Cyrix order. Uterly mad and only slightly evil.
And it'll be bad. Evil even. And ill blame you and Lizard for it :P.
I’ve removed content from this thread because off-topic discussions are a violation of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_...
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
...Am I the only one that thinks this is reaching the point of downright Kafkaesque insanity?
I condone the use of the word Kafkaesque. However, I'm presentely ambivalent. I mean, that can't be serious, right? We're April 1st, right? They didn't mod RPJesus for off-topic discussion when the WHOLE THREAD IS OFF-TOPIC, right?
Save or die. If you disagree with this, you're wrong (Not because of any points or arguements that have been made, but I just rolled a d20 for you and got a 1, so you lose).
HOW DID I NOT KNOW ABOUT THE BEAR PRODUCING WORDS OF WILDING?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?!
That's what RPJesus tends to do. That's why I don't think he's a real person, but some Magic Card Archive Server sort of machine, that is programmed to react to other posters' comments with obscure cards that do in fact exist, but somehow missed by even the most experienced Magic players.
And then come up with strange combos with said cards. All of that is impossible for a normal human to do given the amount of time he does it and how often he does it.
He/It got me with Light of Sanction , which prompted me to go to RQ&A to try and find if it was even possible to do combat damage to a creature I control (in light that Mark of Asylum exists).
Blue players get all the overpowerered cards like JTMS. I think it's time that wizards gave something to people who remember what magic is really about: creatures.
Initially yes, Wizards was married to blue. However, about a decade ago they had a nasty divorce, and a few years after that they began courting the attention of Green. Then in Worldwake they had a nasty affair with their ex, but as of Innistrad , things seem to have gotten back on track, and Wizards has even proposed .
You are my favorite. Yes you. And moments like this make it so. Thank you RPJesus for just being you.
I've enjoyed every edition of D&D and they have all had issues that arise when you start to play. I loved the way 1e D&D was heavily based on myths, legends, and classic literature but playing fighters, thieves, wizards and clerics was very different indeed. Clerics were thought of as dull and yet were essential to every group's survival, while wizards were almost useless at low levels and definitely drove the rest cycle. Multi-classing was fun but was never balanced well and some of the level limits on demi-humans were interesting to say the least (actually I rather approved of the way they channelled the demi-humans into their iconic roles but some e.g. the level 11 wizard limit for elves seemed a bit odd).
2e had more variation but had wildly different builds that were not that intuitive (like giving clerics access to raise dead and reincarnation while giving driuds access to neither).
3e was fun but multiclassing and prestige classes became unwieldy and as a DM I was finding that I was spending hours creating monsters and npcs that lasted a few rounds at most before a save or die effect finished them off.
Like any version, 4e has pros and cons. Building custom monsters is now a joy using the available tools and the (offline) character builder has been really helpful. There is no doubt that this game is more balanced. I like the way that rituals have been divorced from classes (although I would probably have given certain classes bonus riders to certain rituals e.g. clerics to healing/religion or primal to nature). We have converted our 20 year old PCs across every version and I am reasonably happy with the way we have been able to recapture the spirit of the originals (although it took about a year for enough options to come out). It's taken some practice to marry up skill challenges and role playing but I think we are there now.
I can see that building PCs (pre-essentials) might be a tad complex for novices and even for role-players who are building their PC with abilities that they can visualise rather than for any strict mechanical benefits. I also dislike the way that min/maxing has become even more important. I want a viable option for intelligent fighters or wise thieves and I don't see why that should be so dependent on mechanical stats. I'd be happy if house rules were possible by ticking a box in the builder to divorce power attack rolls from primary ability scores a bit like companion characters (perhaps affording a +1 if your stat is 18+) and leave ability scores to affect only damage and secondary riders. Maybe some fear that this would make characters too similar but it seems to me that feats, themes, backgrounds, player-invented histories, and power choices should be the way to distinguish PCs. Actually being able to hit is just an essential mechanic and I don't think players should have to spend any time worrying that they won't be able to do that.
I can see that building PCs (pre-essentials) might be a tad complex for novices and even for role-players who are building their PC with abilities that they can visualise rather than for any strict mechanical benefits. I also dislike the way that min/maxing has become even more important. I want a viable option for intelligent fighters or wise thieves and I don't see why that should be so dependent on mechanical stats. I'd be happy if house rules were possible by ticking a box in the builder to divorce power attack rolls from primary ability scores a bit like companion characters (perhaps affording a +1 if your stat is 18+) and leave ability scores to affect only damage and secondary riders. Maybe some fear that this would make characters too similar but it seems to me that feats, themes, backgrounds, player-invented histories, and power choices should be the way to distinguish PCs. Actually being able to hit is just an essential mechanic and I don't think players should have to spend any time worrying that they won't be able to do that.
My simplest suggestion: remove just about everything that adds a constant bonus to attack rolls (ability modifiers, feat bonuses, and enhancement bonuses in particular), and change the attack roll to simply Level + 4 + proficiency (if weapon attack). Easy to remember, and I'm pretty sure that because the party has the same level, it'll just be a difference in terms of proficiency.
Damage is where the difference would be at
Note that the game still does allow for suboptimal builds, it's just not "as fun" for just about everybody, given the small number of classes that don't require hitting as much. Thankfully though, DMs can easily just lower the level -- or even just the defenses -- of enemies and have in place terrain powers that are effectively either skill checks or level-based attacks, removing the need to actually change anything
[ Yeah I'm prepared to be called on "Oberoni's Fallacy" on that, but the point is, even if it *is* Oberoni's Fallacy, it's still less work on the DM's part compared to previous editions, so a suboptimal group can still enjoy the game, and finding the middle ground between optimal and suboptimal seems a bit less problematic on the part of the DM in 4E compared to previous editions, because of the combination of reigning in of overpowered/broken options, as well as giving the DM just about full control of the whole game. Simply put, in 4E, the game moves at the speed of plot ]
You are both rational and emotional. You value creation and discovery, and feel strongly about what you create. At best, you're innovative and intuitive. At worst, you're scattered and unpredictable.
If you're crossing the street and see a city bus barreling straight toward you with 'GIVE ME YOUR WALLET!' painted across its windshield, you probably won't be reaching for your wallet.
This is what I believe is the spirit of D&D 4E, and my deal breaker for D&D Next: equal opportunities, with distinct specializations, in areas where conflict happens the most often, without having to worry about heavy micromanagement or system mastery.
I agree that 4e is easier to adjust monsters to take account of strengths or weaknesses in a party. The problem arises where you have a mixed group with a couple of optimisers and non-optimisers. Non-optimised characters can have greater breadth (and the optimised PC does complain about failing skill checks so I point out that could be because he pumped so much into weapons and defences) but it can feel harder to quantify.
you loads
