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2 years ago ::
Oct 06, 2011 - 12:10PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Nov 29, 2001
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That title just filled about a thousand fans with rage who are already typing furious replies, so I should start out by saying I'm probably not going to respond to any of them. I'm a former long-term forumer who left a while ago because I didn't like the direction Mearls was taking the game with Essentials. I haven't posted in a long time, but I still stop by now and then to read the articles and see where 5e might be heading. I just wanted to express some dissatisfaction. I left because I didn't like the direction things were headed. A lot of other people didn't like the direction either, and many of them probably stopped hanging around too. I just want to make sure that Mearls, and now Cook, and the rest of the designers and market researchers, don't forget that there are people who did like D&D, and who could be 5e customers, who aren't participating in this web site anymore. All of these new polls about what 5e should be like worry me because it looks like Mearls is essentially doing market research on an echo chamber. When 3e came out, it alienated some 2e folks, when 3.5e came out, it alienated some 3e folks, when 4e came out, it alienated quite a lot of 3.5e folks, and when 4.E came out, it alienated a bunch of 4.0 folks. The people who are left regularly participating on this site are people who were happy with the shift from 3 to 3.5 to 4.0 to 4.E to the future. In short, they are the people who stood by every change D&D made and are happy with Mearls's recent changes and the decision to start going retro. Setting up a bunch of polls asking if these people like everything Mearls wants to do and then getting back a "yes" does not mean that these ideas for 5e are actually good ideas. It means you've narrowed down your fans to Mearls fans. The polls are also incredibly "leading", they follow an article all about how Mearls or Monte thinks that something from 3e/4e sucks, and how a very vague and not thought out idea might somehow be better, and then ask "So which is better, the new awesome thing, or the crappy terrible thing that I will phrase in such a way that most people won't choose it?" So I just want to make sure my voice is heard, and make sure WotC remembers that there are people who actually LIKED 4e who could be your 5e customers, and there were people who actually LIKED 3.5 and moved to Pathfinder who could also be your 5e customers, and that it's a bad idea to put two people who hate 3e and 4e in charge of 5e, and believing that questionably worded polls show that "the majority" agree with them that 1e was the only good edition and that everything from the last twenty years needs to be scrapped. Retro is bad. Unbalanced is bad. Making all the rules flimsy and unusable on purpose to allow "DM freedom" to try and rule on the fly is bad. System Mastery is bad. "Rules hurt roleplay so we're allowed to make **** rules that everyone will ignore" is bad. "It doesn't matter that my designs are unbalanced and won't work in an actual gameplay setting, because they're REALISTIC and FREE and FLAVORFUL" is bad. "Magic and items and powers and classes and monsters shouldn't be held to strict formulas, we should be free to write whatever numbers we want and the DM should figure out how to balance it on his own" is bad. Pretty much everything I've read in L&L is bad, bad, bad. If you look at the poll numbers though, everyone seems to be totally on board with turning 5e into 1e. The forums will be full of people rabidly defending every column and every idea that gets posted by the designers. Please, PLEASE, just remember that these people aren't the only ones out there. Float these ideas in front of Pathfinder fans, in front of people who don't like Essentials, in front of people who stuck with 3.5 or 3.0, in front of younger kids who like WoW, and lots of other groups. All of them could be 5e customers if you do it right. If you stay insular and only bounce these ideas off a bunch of 1e grognards, of course it will seem like you've found the ultimate design to 5e. PLEASE tell me that you have designers out there trying these ideas on people who aren't already 100% predisposed to agree with everything the designers are going to say. Thanks, and see you in a few months when I'm next filled with nerd rage.  -makeshiftwings
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2 years ago ::
Oct 06, 2011 - 12:18PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jul 13, 2011
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i'm gonna keep this short:
i think 4th sucked, gave it like 3 campaigns of effort, and swore it off til they busted out the essentials stuff. it's still not very good, but tolerable enough to hang out with my gaming group.
i've liked the ideas behind most L&L columns, if not the specific suggested implementation that at least the concept (the idea of this statement to disprove the thesis of your post that only grognards and people that like everything post here with a quick example to the contrary, because arguing your post on a point by point basis will do nothing for either you or me)
"System Mastery is bad." 4th is a pile of system mastery on the player end so I don't know what you mean by this.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 06, 2011 - 12:18PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2008
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Well then... You say you stop in every now and then to check things out. I doubt that. If you actually did, you would see just as many people posting their concerns and criticisms as there are agreeing with the staus quo. Claiming that the forum members who chose to not flee for greener pastures are simply brainless slaves to whims of the might WotC and will buy whatever is passed in front of them is...well...a boastful claim, to say the least, and downright wrong to boot. Check any given thread that discusses the direction Cook plans to take things. You will see your own words mirrored back in spades. Many of us are concerned about the future direction of the game, but perhaps feel it is better to stay here and stay abreast of the situations as they unfold rather than tuck tail and run, effectively sticking our heads in the sand whenever anyone mentions a "new direction" for the game we all love.
In fond memory of Mark "Wrecan" Monack.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 06, 2011 - 12:21PM
#4
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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I just want to make sure that Mearls, and now Cook, and the rest of the designers and market researchers, don't forget
I don't believe you. I remember you, makeshiftwings, and I know that you know that the best way to get a message to the developers is through Customer Service. These forums, and "General" Discussion in particular isn't designed for communicating to the designers. It's designed for communicating with the community, the folks you decry as an "echo chamber". But you know this.
Please people, don't rise to the bait. Let the thread just die.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 06, 2011 - 12:34PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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don't rise to the bait. Let the thread just die.
+1
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2 years ago ::
Oct 06, 2011 - 12:54PM
#6
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Sory Wrecan, I just can't... I just can't read through that and not point out that many of the people in this forum are not just those who liked the change from 3.5 to 4 to 4.1, but a lot of the people here are new players brought in by the changes in the game. I like where the game has gone in 4e, I like the new DM books like Monster Vault 1 and 2, the Neverwinter champaign book and Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Emporium, I think we are getting some of the best the game has to offer... From what I can tell what you want from the game is very ridgid rules. Great, you don't have to rule on the fly, L&L is talking about ideas and concepts to think about, its like D&D philosiphy not market research. And while you might think both responces in their questions are leading, Im sure if I went over to the World of Darkness sites and looked at their ideas of good gaming Id dislike my options there as well. Not saying its bad, just not for me. If you are so dead set against the change, when Mearls and Cook ring your door bell to take away your books, don't answer and hide under your bed. Keep playing the game you love and be happy for it. You are never made to change your game because of a web page.
Im just so frustraded by posts like this. No game can please everyone, for everyone of you there is one of me, someone who picks and choses what I like from the large array of D&D offerings and thinks the game has only gotten better since I first picked up a D&D book in late 2007.
And again sorry Wrecan
In the Nentir Vale, all injured creatures are required to wear a name tag!
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2 years ago ::
Oct 06, 2011 - 12:59PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Mar 19, 2010
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Agreed! Death to this thread!
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2 years ago ::
Oct 06, 2011 - 1:21PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Apr 16, 2005
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Surely you don't mean to invalidate the original poster's opinion.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 06, 2011 - 3:13PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jan 30, 2007
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Love how grognards assume that the maximum number of people who played D&D were in the 1e/2e days, and the numbers have been declining ever since, with no new players who happen to like it.
Salla, on minions: I typically use them as encounter filler. 'I didn't quite fill out the XP budget, not enough room left for a decent near-level monster ... sprinkle in a few minions'. Kind of like monster styrofoam packing peanuts.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 06, 2011 - 3:17PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jan 28, 2004
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Pandering to hardcore fans isn't always good, and TV Tropes can show you why.
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