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2 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2011 - 3:09AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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> That last one, where Cook demonstrated blatant unfamiliarity with 4e, then
> suggested a 'new' idea that wasn't new at all, and didn't make much sense,
> /and/ was told so in no uncertain terms on the forums (and other forums) and
> comments section, and still got big aproval on the poll?
I have a feeling that a fair number of Pathfinder folks followed him there and voted in favor because he was pitching it.
Mind you, I'm also coming to suspect that many of those L&L columns are meant to speak to old-E fans (rather than current 4E players) and the columns are thus written assuming that they don't know how 4E works.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2011 - 6:43AM
#22
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Date Joined:
Oct 24, 2001
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My definition of "grognard" is "person who irrationally feels that previous version X of anything (RPGs, Music, Interpretive Dance, etc) is better than any version that has come out subsiquently, and anyone who feels otherwise is an idiot, because only the grognard's opinion is valid, end of discussion."
I disagree with defining the term in a manner that makes it inherently an insult.
Is there a more specific definition when dealing with RPG grognards? I didn't mean to offend anybody who prefers old editions in a rational manner.
I consider a grognard anyone who remembers older editions of a game with fondness. Such a definition has no relation to an assessment of current versions of the game. By this definition:
- Some grognards do not like the current edition (the OP?).
- Some grognards love the current edition (including myself).
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion: - Three Basic Rules (p 11)
- Power Types and Usage (p 54)
- Skills (p178-179)
- Feats (p 192)
- Rest and Recovery (p 263)
- All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2011 - 7:11AM
#23
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Date Joined:
Jan 30, 2007
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My definition of "grognard" is "person who irrationally feels that previous version X of anything (RPGs, Music, Interpretive Dance, etc) is better than any version that has come out subsiquently, and anyone who feels otherwise is an idiot, because only the grognard's opinion is valid, end of discussion."
I disagree with defining the term in a manner that makes it inherently an insult.
Is there a more specific definition when dealing with RPG grognards? I didn't mean to offend anybody who prefers old editions in a rational manner.
I consider a grognard anyone who remembers older editions of a game with fondness. Such a definition has no relation to an assessment of current versions of the game. By this definition:
- Some grognards do not like the current edition (the OP?).
- Some grognards love the current edition (including myself).
Interesting. I had always inferred that it meant "the complainers," which is kind of what the original french word means: an old grumbling soldier.
I'll refrain from using in that manner in the future.
Salla, on minions: I typically use them as encounter filler. 'I didn't quite fill out the XP budget, not enough room left for a decent near-level monster ... sprinkle in a few minions'. Kind of like monster styrofoam packing peanuts.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2011 - 7:21AM
#24
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Dear Wizards: I have been a D&D player since I was a child and I have always enjoyed it. I’ve kept up with the changes from edition to edition despite my frequent grousing about such changes. I think with Fourth Edition you’ve hit a sweet spot in game design and I really enjoy it, but I fear that the Essentials line has really caused you to hit a snag. It’s vast and sweeping rules changes are too broad for me to ignore, and I feel you unnecessarily compel me to incorporate the totally optional rule changes in Essentials into my existing campaign. I cannot handle the slight changes to the power system and thinking about one class having two roles gives me a migraine. While Essentials is only about a year old, I can already tell that you are committed to continued publication and that you intend to knock into the mud any player that may want to continue playing the Fourth Edition I’ve known and loved for the last few years. I know you are just trying to expand the player base and give current players more options, but I can’t abide by that. If you want my money, I insist that you go back to cooking up semi-annual splat books featuring semi-useless feats until you paint yourself into a design corner from which D&D will never escape. I know that’s asking a lot, but that’s the price of my continued support of your products. Just to show you how far I am willing to go, I will refuse to use the Character Builder despite how much easier it makes building characters. My lack of login and the transfer of my consumer dollars away from you to Ticonderoga Pencils will be the ultimate demonstrate of my resolve. Please, WotC, stop innovating. Please stop trying to take any sort of risk or attempting to push the envelope in game design. I feel as though I am constantly being pushed out of my safe place and it is no longer socially acceptable for me to carry my security blanket at all times. I am afraid of the direction D&D is taking, but I am equally paralyzed by the notion of trying another system. As such, my only option is to fire volleys of forum posts at you in the hopes that you will listen and stop with all the creative changes you have made. All I desire is more of the same mother’s milk you’ve provided for the last few years and I do not want to be weaned off with different fare.
Rule one isn’t “The DM is always right.” Rule one is: Everyone should be having fun at the table.
Plans for 5e: Kill the d20, and replace it with a bell curve for task resolution.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2011 - 7:52AM
#25
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2008
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Dear Wizards:
I have been a D&D player since I was a child and I have always enjoyed it. I’ve kept up with the changes from edition to edition despite my frequent grousing about such changes. I think with Fourth Edition you’ve hit a sweet spot in game design and I really enjoy it, but I fear that the Essentials line has really caused you to hit a snag. It’s vast and sweeping rules changes are too broad for me to ignore, and I feel you unnecessarily compel me to incorporate the totally optional rule changes in Essentials into my existing campaign. I cannot handle the slight changes to the power system and thinking about one class having two roles gives me a migraine. While Essentials is only about a year old, I can already tell that you are committed to continued publication and that you intend to knock into the mud any player that may want to continue playing the Fourth Edition I’ve known and loved for the last few years.
I know you are just trying to expand the player base and give current players more options, but I can’t abide by that. If you want my money, I insist that you go back to cooking up semi-annual splat books featuring semi-useless feats until you paint yourself into a design corner from which D&D will never escape. I know that’s asking a lot, but that’s the price of my continued support of your products. Just to show you how far I am willing to go, I will refuse to use the Character Builder despite how much easier it makes building characters. My lack of login and the transfer of my consumer dollars away from you to Ticonderoga Pencils will be the ultimate demonstrate of my resolve.
Please, WotC, stop innovating. Please stop trying to take any sort of risk or attempting to push the envelope in game design. I feel as though I am constantly being pushed out of my safe place and it is no longer socially acceptable for me to carry my security blanket at all times. I am afraid of the direction D&D is taking, but I am equally paralyzed by the notion of trying another system. As such, my only option is to fire volleys of forum posts at you in the hopes that you will listen and stop with all the creative changes you have made.
All I desire is more of the same mother’s milk you’ve provided for the last few years and I do not want to be weaned off with different fare.
Spread your wings and fly, little eagle, spread your wings and fly!
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2 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2011 - 9:50AM
#26
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
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The direction going forward doesnt really have much choice. It has to call back many of those who have been lost and it has to patch up a community that is badly fragmented. Paizo has managed to form a whole company that competes on equal terms in sales, purely from those left behind and their creative energy.
To make matters worse, much of what 4th edition did well has been squandered or misused. It's a horrible lack of direction that doesnt even support the core product in what it does best.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2011 - 9:56AM
#27
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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I just want to second some of makeshiftwings' initial statement. As some one who has recently come back to these forums (and is already thinking about walking away), I feel that this forum environment is VERY critical to anyone who is not a hardcore fan of 4e. The statement about the echo chamber rings true to me. I would also like to know what is a realistic way to communicate to wizards about concerns for future development. Someone mentioned customer service. Seriously? That is the way wizards want us to message to the designers? I find that hard to believe, but if someone has actual experience with that being effective, I would love to hear about it.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2011 - 10:02AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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The direction going forward doesnt really have much choice. It has to call back many of those who have been lost and it has to patch up a community that is badly fragmented. Paizo has managed to form a whole company that competes on equal terms in sales, purely from those left behind and their creative energy.
To make matters worse, much of what 4th edition did well has been squandered or misused. It's a horrible lack of direction that doesnt even support the core product in what it does best.
What Paizo does really well is support their product line and publish regularly. I do NOT like the pathfinder system, but I am drawn to their products just based on the consistency of quality and support. With wizards, you feel that they are thrashing about looking for some kind of magic formula/product that is going to be the next big thing. It reminds me of the way TV shows are now developed, where if it is not an instant sensation, it is abandoned. I also think that they must be pouring a lot of money into VTT, and this is hurting their bread and butter product lines.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2011 - 10:03AM
#29
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As some one who has recently come back to these forums (and is already thinking about walking away), I feel that this forum environment is VERY critical to anyone who is not a hardcore fan of 4e.
Yep.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 07, 2011 - 10:09AM
#30
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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As some one who has recently come back to these forums (and is already thinking about walking away), I feel that this forum environment is VERY critical to anyone who is not a hardcore fan of 4e.
Yep.
It's not very critical to "anyone" who is not a hardcore fan of 4e. There are people with well-formed, legitimate reasons disliking a wide variety of aspects of 4e. I myself have been highly critical of the Essentials design philosophy, and have never hid it. I've gotten into reasoned, meaningful debates with people who disagreed, but I never felt beat up about it.
Who the forum is harsh to, however, are the people who come in saying "I don't like 4e" and then list incomplete, inaccurate, and oversimplified reasons why. As people with more knowledge of the system and what it does and does not do well, the forum denizens rightly criticize complaints that aren't backed by what the system actually does. And then the complainer gets all mad, typically, because they don't feel like they're being heard - when in reality they were heard, they were told they weren't seeing the system from the fullest possible perspective.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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