Okay, LoW, let me ask you: In the context of Ready An Action, how do you define attack? Please also provide a reasoning for this definition. Edit: Also, under your definition, at what point does an attack start?
Detailed analysis, and useful color-coding, but it is based on the same flawed assumptions. You assume that step 2 is not part of attack, and that's not based on actual rules, and directly breaks several of them.
You ignore the fact that Choosing Targets outright fails if targeting is part of attack but not also part of attack. Several powers literally become nonfunctional, and that's not an acceptable result. Because of this, in order for Making Attacks to apply to all powers, each individual attack within a power must have its own targeting step, at the time when the attack happens. Movement and other attacks taken before an individual attack within an attack can change, in either direction, the validity of the target for the attackrelative to their validity at the first time of Step 2.
I would ask when, precisely, relative to steps 1, 2, and 3, the movement of a power such as Deft Strike occurs. Clearly it happens before the attack, and clearly after step 1. The question is whether it happens before step 2, or between steps 2 and 3. If it happens between steps 2 and 3, then if you're using a shortsword or other non-thrown weapon, you run into targeting problems. Suddenly you can't use this power to advance on a target that's currently out of reach, which seems like an unusual result. But unusual is not damning, to be sure.
More critical rules failures come when there are conditional second targets. If an attack requires the resolution of a previous attack within an attack in order to determine targets, then step 2 must be repeated for each attack. An example of a power is given by one that has a target line like "Target: One creature hit by the primary attack." It is impossible for these powers to function if all targets must be specified before any attackhas resolved. This means that attack cannot be the proper definition to use when analyzing the targeting step.
Furthermore, attack requires a target. Attack must have a target definition, or the attack roll cannot be compared to the target's defense. This means that "targeted by an attack" is not invalidated by the definition of attack.
You make an assumption that targeting is not part of attack, despite the fact that it does, in fact, require a target. You make an assumption that targeting is done only once, by an attack, that doesn't hold up under scrutiny.
Your interpretation and analysis is flawed, and I have demonstrated those flaws.
Okay, LoW, let me ask you: In the context of Ready An Action, how do you define attack? Please also provide a reasoning for this definition.
An attack is an attack. Start to finish, one Close, Melee, Area, or Ranged attack.
If an attack is targeting you, it has begun, and you must wait because reactions to attacks resolve after the triggering attack. In order for a reaction to an attack to resolve before the attack resolves, it must trigger on a pre-attack event like a step of movement. This pre-attack event can be part of the same action used to attack, or a different action, but it must not be part of the triggering attack - and "targeted by an attack" is necessarily something being done by an attack. . If targeting is not part of an attack, then "targeted by an attack" cannot happen, which is stupid and thus wrong.
Go back a few pages: I maintain that the "making attacks" process is the process by which you make one attack, and that a multi-attack power will necessarily go through the process repeatedly. Yes, the "choose a power" step is meaningless on subsequent iterations because nothing says you *can* choose a new power and several things say you can't - but if you take the "making attacks" process to be the full process of using an attack POWER, it ALSO simply cannot handle a power like Deft Strike, where after choosing the power and BEFORE choosing targets you have stuff you must do. Or anything that lets you move between attacks. Or after attacks. There's simply no step in "making attacks" to cover those things.
The only way the "making attacks" process can be meaningfully parsed is if it is the process by which you make ONE ATTACK, which can be part of a larger action.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
What this means is that a player could theoretically make their trigger being targeted by an attack (meaning targeted by an attack power) instead of being attacked, and have their trigger resolve at the end of step 2, without technically violating the rules.
Except that if that *were* possible or intended to be possible, Ready An Action would be worded completely differently and would, without any possible shadow of a doubt, not tell you that reacting to targeting is impossible.
To steal your own colouration: Right now, it tells you that you MUST react to a pre-attack powerevent in order for your Reaction to resolve before any attacks, and that once the attack power begins, it's too late, you have to wait for the first attack or step of movement to finish before your reaction happens.
Which tells us? That "targeting" is not a distinct reactable event, and that the rules for reactions work exactly the way they say they do: Reactions go after ACTIONS[1], with two exceptions. Those exceptions are steps of movement and individual attacks.
[1]: Or events that are not part of any action. Which Targeting *also* is not.
This is not correct, LoW. You can most certainly react to something within an attack power and resolve before any attack, but only in the case that you're reacting to a square of movement, such as the movement contained within Deft Strike, or a Charge action. You can also react to one attack and resolve after that attack but before any subsequent attack. The entire argument hinges on whether targeting is required as part of an attack, and my last post has demonstrated that it is.
What this means is that a player could theoretically make their trigger being targeted by an attack (meaning targeted by an attack power) instead of being attacked, and have their trigger resolve at the end of step 2, without technically violating the rules.
Except that if that *were* possible or intended to be possible, Ready An Action would be worded completely differently and would, without any possible shadow of a doubt, not tell you that reacting to targeting is impossible.
To steal your own colouration: Right now, it tells you that you MUST react to a pre-attack powerevent in order for your Reaction to resolve before any attacks, and that once the attack power begins, it's too late, you have to wait for the first attack or step of movement to finish before your reaction happens.
Which tells us? That "targeting" is not a distinct reactable event, and that the rules for reactions work exactly the way they say they do: Reactions go after ACTIONS[1], with two exceptions. Those exceptions are steps of movement and individual attacks.
[1]: Or events that are not part of any action. Which Targeting *also* is not.
This is not correct, LoW. You can most certainly react to something within an attack power and resolve before any attack, but only in the case that you're reacting to a square of movement. You can also react to one attack and resolve after that attack but before any subsequent attack. The entire argument hinges on whether targeting is required as part of an attack, and my last post has demonstrated that it is.
True, I left out the possibility that the attack power had begun but a step of movement happened before the attack.
Still, my last point remains: Reactions happen after actions, and have an exception to react to "one attack" and interrupt "further parts of the same action", and an exception to react to "one step of movement" and interrupt "further parts of the same action". They do *not* have an exception to react to part of an attack and interrupt the triggering attack itself - in fact, they have the exact opposite, an explicit rule telling you that this cannot occur.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
What this means is that a player could theoretically make their trigger being targeted by an attack (meaning targeted by an attack power) instead of being attacked, and have their trigger resolve at the end of step 2, without technically violating the rules.
Except that if that *were* possible or intended to be possible, Ready An Action would be worded completely differently and would, without any possible shadow of a doubt, not tell you that reacting to targeting is impossible.
To steal your own colouration: Right now, it tells you that you MUST react to a pre-attack powerevent in order for your Reaction to resolve before any attacks, and that once the attack power begins, it's too late, you have to wait for the first attack or step of movement to finish before your reaction happens.
Which tells us? That "targeting" is not a distinct reactable event, and that the rules for reactions work exactly the way they say they do: Reactions go after ACTIONS[1], with two exceptions. Those exceptions are steps of movement and individual attacks.
[1]: Or events that are not part of any action. Which Targeting *also* is not.
Ready an Action rule is irrelevant in this case. Customer service twice confirmed.
It's only relevant when you want to interrupt the full attack sequence. You know this and continue to falsely conflate the two scenarios of interrupting the whole attack sequence and reacting to a trigger which is part of an attack sequence. 2 different animals 2 different rules.
Detailed analysis, and useful color-coding, but it is based on the same flawed assumptions. You assume that step 2 is not part of attack, and that's not based on actual rules, and directly breaks several of them.
You ignore the fact that Choosing Targets outright fails if targeting is part of attack but not also part of attack. Several powers literally become nonfunctional, and that's not an acceptable result. Because of this, in order for Making Attacks to apply to all powers, each individual attack within a power must have its own targeting step, at the time when the attack happens. Movement and other attacks taken before an individual attack within an attack can change, in either direction, the validity of the target for the attackrelative to their validity at the first time of Step 2.
I would ask when, precisely, relative to steps 1, 2, and 3, the movement of a power such as Deft Strike occurs. Clearly it happens before the attack, and clearly after step 1. The question is whether it happens before step 2, or between steps 2 and 3. If it happens between steps 2 and 3, then if you're using a shortsword or other non-thrown weapon, you run into targeting problems. Suddenly you can't use this power to advance on a target that's currently out of reach, which seems like an unusual result. But unusual is not damning, to be sure.
More critical rules failures come when there are conditional second targets. If an attack requires the resolution of a previous attack within an attack in order to determine targets, then step 2 must be repeated for each attack. An example of a power is given by one that has a target line like "Target: One creature hit by the primary attack." It is impossible for these powers to function if all targets must be specified before any attackhas resolved. This means that attack cannot be the proper definition to use when analyzing the targeting step.
Furthermore, attack requires a target. Attack must have a target definition, or the attack roll cannot be compared to the target's defense. This means that "targeted by an attack" is not invalidated by the definition of attack.
You make an assumption that targeting is not part of attack, despite the fact that it does, in fact, require a target. You make an assumption that targeting is done only once, by an attack, that doesn't hold up under scrutiny.
Your interpretation and analysis is flawed, and I have demonstrated those flaws.
You have not demonstrated anything. You assert that majority opinion violates several rules but cannot quote a single one that is relevant to the discussion. Ready an action is irrelevant. The only thing relevant is making an attack process and timing for reactions and interrupts and the wording is clear. Interrupts interrupt trigger, reactions after.
Not interrupts interrupt what Mand12 thinks is the trigger and reactions react after what Mand12 thinks is the trigger.
With your example of the multi-attack the solution is simple: the power itself tells you what goes in the target space. And if that's not filled you do what the power says under secondary, tertiary, etc attack lines to fill the targeting line. It's just like an effect that has you swap targets. You don't literally go back to stage 2 of the making an attack process, you do the target swapping as an effect of the power be it an interrupt or reaction.
Deft Strike
A final lunge brings you into an advantageous position.
At-WillMartial, Weapon Standard ActionMelee or Ranged weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow, a light blade, or a sling.
Effect: Before the attack, you can move up to 2 squares.
Martial, Weapon