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2 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2011 - 2:10PM
#21
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How i understands it, being targeted is a distinct event (RC 105) that happen when a Power is used. Its not necessarly during an attack and can be resolved before a Reaction can interrupt the rest of the action that contain the trigger.
And this is quite clearly wrong.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2011 - 2:10PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2010
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First of all, thanks for the replies. I feel a little bit better about being confused on this topic, since there are several disparate views. The question that I now have, however, is about the trigger itself.
What's the difference between a reaction set to trigger:
-when you are targeted by an attack.
-when you are attacked.
-when you are hit.
-when you are damaged by an attack.
Because it sounds like people are saying that in all of these cases, the reaction doesn't resolve until the attack resolves, and if that's the case, why have different triggers in response to the attack?
Because the powers respond to different things. A power that responds to you being hit and allows you to spend a surge, for instance, might be overpowered in reaction to you being missed. A power that reacts to you being damaged, and minimises damage, wouldn't do anything if the attack did no damage, and having it react to damage makes it impossible to waste on a non-damaging attack. Etc.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2011 - 2:19PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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And the most important part about powers responding to different things is that despite WotC feeling like a step-by-step list was the best way of explaining several simultaneous things a player has to keep in mind while attacking does not mean that there are distinct timing windows where reactions can resolve. Saying otherwise is reading into the rules, and is not valid.
An attack is a discrete event. An attack can be interrupted, but it takes an interrupt to do so. The presence of multiple configurations of triggers for things related to attacking does not change the fact that it is an attack that is the trigger.
I hate to put it to RAI, but if reactions in question were supposed to interrupt they would be interrupts. That's like saying "A longsword's damage die is d8, though sometimes it's d10." And then proceeding to say that all circumstances you should use a d10. It's not logical.
You will not convince me that any interpretation that results in one game element ceasing to exist arbitrarily under vague, unspecified circumstances and being subsumed into another game element is a valid interpretation.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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2 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2011 - 2:26PM
#24
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First of all, thanks for the replies. I feel a little bit better about being confused on this topic, since there are several disparate views.
There really aren't. There are the "reactions are reactions" people, and the "reactions are interrupts" people, and the "reactions are interrupts" people are wrong because reactions are reactions, not interrupts.
The question that I now have, however, is about the trigger itself.
What's the difference between a reaction set to trigger:
-when you are targeted by an attack.
-when you are attacked.
-when you are hit.
-when you are damaged by an attack.
Because it sounds like people are saying that in all of these cases, the reaction doesn't resolve until the attack resolves, and if that's the case, why have different triggers in response to the attack?
#1: Yes, in NO CASE does your Reaction happen before the attack completely resolves.
#2: The four conditions (and several others!) exist because they are different circumstances.
-when you are targeted by an attack.
Includes when you are Hit, when you are Missed, and when you are neither hit nor missed - for example, you can use this when targeted with Magic Missile.
-when you are attacked.
Nearly identical to the first, but simply a phrasing used by different writers.
-when you are hit.
Doesn't trigger if you're missed, or if you're targeted by an attack that doesn't Hit. Magic Missile, for example, can't be Reacted to with this power.
-when you are damaged by an attack
Many attacks don't do damage, and you can't use these reactions in response to them. Some attacks do damage on a miss - a power that damages on a miss can be Reacted to with this. If your Reaction said "Hit", you couldn't use it if you were damaged by a power that does damage on a miss.
The different triggers exist because different powers trigger on different things. The power type, though, regardless of what triggers it, tells you WHEN it resolves: Reactions resolve after, Interrupts resolve before.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2011 - 2:28PM
#25
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2001
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Really, the only justficiation for your line of reasoning is the "Not all reactions resolve after the action containing them resolves." That's not a general rule, in fact it's the opposite of a general rule. The general rule is that they do resolve after the action, with some exceptions such as multiattack powers and multi-square movement, as it clearly states.
No the genereal rule is:
An Immediate Reaction waits for its Trigger to finish, not necessarly for the action that contains the Trigger to finish.
Not the action that contain the trigger, just the triggerring event or action. So depending on what the Trigger is an Immediate Reaction will interrupt, and not just for multi-attacks and movement. These are simply exemples and don't represent the only possible adjucation.
The general rule the very sentence before your quote tells you to resolve the triggering action or event completely before the reaction. Either there are two consecutive sentences that directly contradict each other, or the line you're quoting is talking about reacting in between attacks or squares of movement that occur as part of the same action. In that the line is followed with an example of reacting in between attacks of a multiattack power, it's clear that the sentence you quoted is talking about reacting in between attacks or squares of movement.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2011 - 2:29PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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The different triggers exist because different powers trigger on different things. The power type, though, regardless of what triggers it, tells you WHEN it resolves: Reactions resolve after, Interrupts resolve before.
Precisely.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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2 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2011 - 2:37PM
#27
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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Yes, and, being a Reaction, the Reaction resolves AFTER the attack that triggers it. In order to happen before the attack completely resolves, it would have to be an interrupt.
Interrupts happen before their trigger. Reactions happen after their trigger. No action ever happens *during* another event.
Its not being attacked that triggers Instinctive Darkness its being targeted.
Not the same thing at all. Divine Challenge is not an action, and is not a reaciton.
Other Triggerred Actions include ones that are not an action. Divine Challenge is a Triggerred No Action(RC 197)
RC 197 Immediate Reactions: An immediate Reaction lets a creature act in response to a trigger. The
triggering action or event occurs and is completely resolved before the Reaction takes place.An Immediate Reaction waits for its Trigger to Finish, not necessarly for the action that contains the Trigger to finish.
Your creative misinterpretation of this poorly-rephrased rule to allow Reactions to be Interrupts is creative, but a misinterpretation. We can tell that it's definitely not intended to be misread that way, because your misreading of the rule allows Reactions to happen before their trigger resolves, making them Interrupts.
Why you bold only part of the Rule ? An Immediate Reaction waits for its Trigger to Finish, not necessarly for the action that contains the Trigger to finish.
Divine Challenge FAQ support this view. Holy Smite support this view
Do you think that Holy Smite happen before or after the triggerring attack ? To me it seems like Holy Smite damage the target before the triggerring enemy is attacked by the triggerring attack, since the effect line says ''If the triggering attack hits, the target is also dazed until
the end of your next turn.''
Triggerred Free action function as Reaction.
1. You target an enemy with an at-will weapon
2. The target takes radiant damage equal to 2 + your Charisma modifier.
3. If the triggering attack hits, the target is also dazed until the end of your next turn.
4. You make your at-will attack
Holy Smite
Your weapon fills with divine radiant energy, which bursts
forth as you strike your enemy.
Encounter - Divine, Radiant
Free Action Personal
Trigger: You target an enemy with an at-will weapon
attack power.
Effect: The target takes radiant damage equal to 2 + your
Charisma modifier. If the triggering attack hits, the target is also dazed until
the end of your next turn.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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2 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2011 - 2:42PM
#28
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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The trigger is being targeted by an attack.
re: Holy Smite
You make the choice to Holy Smite before you make the attack roll, but all effects of it apply after the attack is resolved because nothing in it requires it to be an interrupt to function. The damage is applied on a hit or a miss or neither, but it doesn't kill the target before you swing at it.
So no, Holy Smite does not "support" your view. You're applying your view to it, just as you're appyling your view to Divine Challenge. The FAQ providing a unique exception ("this triggered non-action has interrupt timing" is what it says) for that particular power does not mean that your view of the general rule is accurate.
You need things that actually support your position, not things that you can apply your position to and show that they agree with your position. You're engaging in circular argument if you do so.
Edit: This is why your argument fails.
1. You target an enemy with an at-will weapon
2. The target takes radiant damage equal to 2 + your Charisma modifier.
3. If the triggering attack hits, the target is also dazed until the end of your next turn.
4. You make your at-will attack
At step 3 under your interpretation, there is no attack yet. Holy Smite cannot resolve without it. The entire effect resolves at the same time, you can't just pick and choose.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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2 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2011 - 3:02PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2001
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Indeed; Holy Smite is actually an argument against reactions resolving mid attack, not for it, since despite triggering on targetting it wouldn't work if you tried to resolve it before the attack had resolved.
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2 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2011 - 3:43PM
#30
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Yes, and, being a Reaction, the Reaction resolves AFTER the attack that triggers it. In order to happen before the attack completely resolves, it would have to be an interrupt.
Interrupts happen before their trigger. Reactions happen after their trigger. No action ever happens *during* another event.
Its not being attacked that triggers Instinctive Darkness its being targeted.
Correct, and since it's a reaction, it resolves after the triggering event resolves completely.
"being targeted" is not an event. "an attack" is an event, "a step of movement" is an event, and "an action" is an event. The first two can occur as part of the third. In the mean time, with the exception of reactions to a step of movement or an attack, or things where the timing is necessary, actions do not happen during other actions.
The fact that the trigger happens when you're targeted just means that the necessary component to use the reaction has been reached. The reason it says "targeted" is so you don't have to worry about hit, missed, "neither hit nor missed", or any other possible attack results - if you were targeted, this power works.
Why you bold only part of the Rule ?
Because that's the part I wanted to emphasise, of course.
An Immediate Reaction waits for its Trigger to Finish, not necessarly for the action that contains the Trigger to finish.
It waits for the event that contains the trigger to finish, yes.
Divine Challenge FAQ support this view.
Not a Reaction.
Holy Smite support this view
Holy Smite is a triggered free action that cannot function as a reaction, as such it is an INTERRUPT, as per the rules for triggered free actions.
Do you think that Holy Smite happen before or after the triggerring attack ?
Before, of course. The "if the attack hits" bit means it can't happen after. Which means it is an INTERRUPT and not, as you incorrectly claim, an example of a Reaction really being an Interrupt because you say Reactions are Interrupts.
Triggerred Free action function as Reaction.
1. You target an enemy with an at-will weapon
2. The target takes radiant damage equal to 2 + your Charisma modifier.
3. If the triggering attack hits, the target is also dazed until the end of your next turn.
4. You make your at-will attack
That's an INTERRUPT. Your Free Action is happening BEFORE your triggering event - your attack.
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