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2 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2011 - 11:20AM
#11
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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This is a very badly written rule. What they mean to say here, I think, is that you can react to individual squares of movement. What's been done by several people here is to expand this into the Making an Attack sequence which lets reactions interrupt attacks. I think that's an overly generous reading of this rule. The movement reaction-interrupt is explicitly called out. No such wording exists for a reaction interrupting an attack.
The exemple that follow this quote is pretty much explicit that it doesn't only apply to movement.
RC 196 Immediate Reaction: An immediate Reaction lets a creature act in response to a Trigger. The Triggerring action or event occurs and is completely resolved before the Reaction takes place. An Immediate Reaction waits for its Trigger to finish, not necessarly for the action that contains the Trigger to finish. Exemple: An Elder Dragon’s Claw Attack Power is a standard action that allow two attack rolls againt the same target. The Dragon faces Fargrim the Fighter, who has an Immediate Reaction (Veteran Gambit) that is Triggerred by being hit with a melee attack. If the Dragon uses Claw Power and Hits Fargrim with the first attack roll, he can use Veteran Gambit in response to that hit. In that case, the Immediate Reaction waits for that hit to be resolved, but does not wait for the entire Power to be resolved.
Likewise, an Immediate Reaction can interrupt movement. Here’s how: If a creature Triggers an Immediate Reaction while moving (by coming into range for insyance) the Reraction can take place before the creature finishes moving, but after it has moved at least 1 square. In other words, an Immediate Reaction can be in response to a square of movement, rather than to n entire move action
Reactions don't interrupt attacks. It's why they're reactions.
If the attack is the Trigger. Here, like Divine Challenge, the Trigger is an event and thus resolved completly before taking place, which means the creature is targeted. The PHB FAQ address it for DC, not as clear as i would like but it does.
40. When does the damage from divine challenge occur? If it’s enough to kill the monster making the attack, does his attack still happen? Divine challenge was recently updated. Please feel free to review the recent update, here, which clarifies this issue.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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2 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2011 - 11:23AM
#12
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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It allows for a reaction between attacks, but not a reaction within an attack. In this way the wording parallels very well with that describing movement. You can react after each square in a multi-square movement, and you can react after each attack in a multi-attack standard action. Nowhere does it say that you can interrupt an attack with a reaction.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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2 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2011 - 11:30AM
#13
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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It allows for a reaction between attacks, but not a reaction within an attack.
It allows for Trigger to finish, not necessarly for the action that contains the Trigger to finish.
If the Trigger is to be targeted, you will finish being targeted before the Immediate Reaction resolve, not necessarly for the action that contains the targeting to finish.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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2 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2011 - 11:35AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Divine Challenge is not an immediate reaction. It is a triggered non-action that has been FAQ'd into the interrupt category (as some must be in order to function, this is an exception to the "must" part), which puts it in similar potency to the rest of the mark violation mechanics.
It is in no way an example of the general rule governing reactions, and its mechanics have absolutely no bearing on the question at hand.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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2 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2011 - 12:13PM
#15
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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Divine Challenge is not an immediate reaction. It is a triggered non-action
And as such it behaves like one
RC 197 Other Triggerred Effect: If an effect has a trigger but is neither an immediate action nor an opportunity action, assume that it behaves like an immediate reaction, waiting for its trigger to completely resolve.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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2 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2011 - 12:22PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Yet even that doesn't quite apply. The FAQ grants an exception.
We have two interpretations that have the same rules result: Divine Challenge can kill the attacker and invalidate the attack.
Your interpretation makes it so all reactions can interrupt attacks. My interpretation makes it so that only those with an actual exception do so, and DC was given such an exception. Given the utter absence of a general rule that says that reactions can interrupt an attack, I can't see how you can choose this example as representative.
Really, the only justficiation for your line of reasoning is the "Not all reactions resolve after the action containing them resolves." That's not a general rule, in fact it's the opposite of a general rule. The general rule is that they do resolve after the action, with some exceptions such as multiattack powers and multi-square movement, as it clearly states.
I'd like you to provide some more concrete justification beyond just this line indicating that intermediate steps within the Making an Attack sequence have reaction-time pauses between them. So far, I haven't found anything other than "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6" and that quite frankly isn't good enough.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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2 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2011 - 1:24PM
#17
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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Really, the only justficiation for your line of reasoning is the "Not all reactions resolve after the action containing them resolves." That's not a general rule, in fact it's the opposite of a general rule. The general rule is that they do resolve after the action, with some exceptions such as multiattack powers and multi-square movement, as it clearly states.
No the genereal rule is:
An Immediate Reaction waits for its Trigger to finish, not necessarly for the action that contains the Trigger to finish.
Not the action that contain the trigger, just the triggerring event or action. So depending on what the Trigger is an Immediate Reaction will interrupt, and not just for multi-attacks and movement. These are simply exemples and don't represent the only possible adjucation.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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2 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2011 - 1:29PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Apr 15, 2007
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First of all, thanks for the replies. I feel a little bit better about being confused on this topic, since there are several disparate views. The question that I now have, however, is about the trigger itself.
What's the difference between a reaction set to trigger:
-when you are targeted by an attack.
-when you are attacked.
-when you are hit.
-when you are damaged by an attack.
Because it sounds like people are saying that in all of these cases, the reaction doesn't resolve until the attack resolves, and if that's the case, why have different triggers in response to the attack?
"You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies." -The Doctor, Remembrance of the Daleks
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2 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2011 - 1:54PM
#19
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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Good question.
How i understands it, being targeted is a distinct event (RC 105) that happen when a Power is used. Its not necessarly during an attack and can be resolved before a Reaction can interrupt the rest of the action that contain the trigger.
An attack is another distinct event (RC 308) and thus resolve completly before a Reaction can interrupt it. An attack include an attack roll, its damage and other efffect.
So when refering to Making Attacks (RC 214) Step 2: Choose Target happens before the attack at step 3: Make an Attack roll and since an attack is basically Step 3-4-5 then any Reaction that trigger off being attacked, hit or damage will resolve after those steps.
Step 6 indicate to me that Step 2 happens before an attack
RC 214 Making Attacks:
1. Choose Power
2. Choose Targets
3. Make Attack roll
4. Compare Attack roll to target Defense and see if it Hit or Miss
5. If the attack Hit, deal damage and other effects.
6. If the attack has more than 1 target, repeat step 3 through 5 for each attacks.
The Power Holy Smite for exemple, deal damage before the triggerring attack IMO. The Effect line seem to support this as well, by saying that If the triggering attack hits, the target is also dazed until the end of your next turn.
Trigger: You target an enemy with an at-will weapon attack power.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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2 years ago ::
Oct 03, 2011 - 2:09PM
#20
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Two things.
An Immediate Reaction waits for its Trigger to Finish, not necessarly for the action that contains the Trigger to finish.
Yes. For an example, you can react to each step of a multi-step movement and each attack of a multi-attack power.
The Trigger here would be to be targeted not attacked or hit.
Yes, and, being a Reaction, the Reaction resolves AFTER the attack that triggers it. In order to happen before the attack completely resolves, it would have to be an interrupt.
Interrupts happen before their trigger. Reactions happen after their trigger. No action ever happens *during* another event.
Just like how Divine Challenge interrupt before the attack takes place, so should Instinctive Darkness.
Not the same thing at all. Divine Challenge is not an action, and is not a reaciton.
RC 197 Immediate Reactions: An immediate Reaction lets a creature act in response to a trigger. The
triggering action or event occurs and is completely resolved before the Reaction takes place.An Immediate Reaction waits for its Trigger to Finish, not necessarly for the action that contains the Trigger to finish.
Your creative misinterpretation of this poorly-rephrased rule to allow Reactions to be Interrupts is creative, but a misinterpretation. We can tell that it's definitely not intended to be misread that way, because your misreading of the rule allows Reactions to happen before their trigger resolves, making them Interrupts.
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