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2 years ago ::
Sep 27, 2011 - 1:26PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2011
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One of my players plays a 'dumb thief', i.e. someone who just can't help himself and tries to pickpocket just about anyone, even if the situation might be dangerous. I have two questions for this situation.
Firstly, how do you deal with pick pocketing? Do you simply do a single Thievery check, or do you make it some sort of skill challenge? Also, what is a reasonable price if the character succeeds. For example, the player in my campaign joined another player to the stables. The other player bought a riding horse. When she was done with the transaction (75g), the thief decided to pickpocket the stable owner. Should I give him the full 75g if he succeeds?
Secondly, what do you do when the thief gets caught in the act (when the player fails by at least 5 on a check, for example)? I was thinking of several possible actions:
- The NPC is angered and doesn't want to deal with the party anymore. This can be troublesome if the adventure revolves around the NPC.
- The thieving player is arrested by local guard(s). He might be put in jail or worse. The problem here is that the party gets split. I'm not sure how to handle that situation.
- The NPC attacks the thieving player. Usually this would result in the NPC getting killed, since I like to make my NPC's weaker than the PC's.
The thief in my campaign has not yet failed, but if he does, I'm not sure what to do. Any of the above actions have some downsides, and I'm not sure what's the best option.
Cheers,
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2 years ago ::
Sep 27, 2011 - 1:36PM
#2
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Firstly, how do you deal with pick pocketing? Do you simply do a single Thievery check, or do you make it some sort of skill challenge? Also, what is a reasonable price if the character succeeds. For example, the player in my campaign joined another player to the stables. The other player bought a riding horse. When she was done with the transaction (75g), the thief decided to pickpocket the stable owner. Should I give him the full 75g if he succeeds?
Thievery check vs. Hard DC of target's level. Fail by 5 or more, you fail and and you're caught. This doesn't call for a skill challenge. For a skill challenge, think more Oceans Eleven planning and execution.
The reasonable price if a character succeeds depends on the level at which you as the DM want to reward his actions. If you don't think it's contributing to the fun of the game, then he gets a few coins for his trouble and some pocket lint. If it's fun for you and the players, he finds all manner of things - cash, gems, hooks to other adventures, etc.
As for the riding horse, yes, you should give him the 75 gp if he succeeds, presuming he literally stole it from the guy's pocket after the sale. Except next time they need a horse, the stable is closed down. It seems the owner lost some money recently and had to close up shop. Now he and his family are out on the streets. Actions have consequences.
Secondly, what do you do when the thief gets caught in the act (when the player fails by at least 5 on a check, for example)? I was thinking of several possible actions:
- The NPC is angered and doesn't want to deal with the party anymore. This can be troublesome if the adventure revolves around the NPC.
- The thieving player is arrested by local guard(s). He might be put in jail or worse. The problem here is that the party gets split. I'm not sure how to handle that situation.
- The NPC attacks the thieving player. Usually this would result in the NPC getting killed, since I like to make my NPC's weaker than the PC's.
The thief in my campaign has not yet failed, but if he does, I'm not sure what to do. Any of the above actions have some downsides, and I'm not sure what's the best option.
What's best in this situation is whatever is the most interesting at the time of the occurrence. All of them are valid as long as they're fun.
There's a greater issue at work, however. This player sounds like an instigator and what he's probably telling you is that he's bored. So, all those scenes of the PCs doing mundane things like buying horses and wandering around town? Get rid of them. Spend your time running a game with an emphasis on action and I bet he doesn't continue to do this anymore.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 27, 2011 - 1:40PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jul 21, 2004
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Firstly, how do you deal with pick pocketing? Do you simply do a single Thievery check, or do you make it some sort of skill challenge?
Either. If it's just a nobody NPC, probably just a single check. Also, you have to imagine what about it would require more than one check.
Also, what is a reasonable price if the character succeeds. For example, the player in my campaign joined another player to the stables. The other player bought a riding horse. When she was done with the transaction (75g), the thief decided to pickpocket the stable owner. Should I give him the full 75g if he succeeds?
Sure, that's pretty minor. Not going to tip the balance of the game.
Secondly, what do you do when the thief gets caught in the act (when the player fails by at least 5 on a check, for example)? I was thinking of several possible actions:
- The NPC is angered and doesn't want to deal with the party anymore. This can be troublesome if the adventure revolves around the NPC.
That's the most I'd do.
- The thieving player is arrested by local guard(s). He might be put in jail or worse. The problem here is that the party gets split. I'm not sure how to handle that situation.
Yeah. It could be interesting, but it would probably be excruciating.
- The NPC attacks the thieving player. Usually this would result in the NPC getting killed, since I like to make my NPC's weaker than the PC's.
Again, could be interesting, probably isn't.
The thief in my campaign has not yet failed, but if he does, I'm not sure what to do. Any of the above actions have some downsides, and I'm not sure what's the best option.
Frankly, I wouldn't have him ever fail. Failure's only interesting when it's interesting, and none of the options you're looking at are that interesting. The numbers you're talking about right now are small, so it makes little difference and it's him acting in character.
When he goes after something important and failure is potentially interesting, that's when you get a skill challenge going for him (and hopefully the other party members, in the same or a parallel challenge).
EDIT: iserith's advice is good. I'll add that if he tries to pick pocket from the party members you should let the victim determine the outcome. Apply this to every player-on-player action and things will never get more out of control than the players want.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
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2 years ago ::
Sep 27, 2011 - 5:14PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Nov 19, 2007
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Centauriis on the money (so to speak) in his suggestions. Keep in mind that the characters are Heroes and not just run of the mill folk. So a hero theif should be able to pull off this kind of activity without too much trouble. If he's just robbing townsfolk for kicks let him. Treat it like working as a farm hand. If your PCs decided they were going to go out and find work as farm hands how would you handle it? I'd ask them to roll a check for how many hours they were planning to work and then reward them so monitary coin for the work. That's what your theif is doing, basically his job.
Also success doesn't always mean he gets something useful, in the old PC game DaggerFall (woah, just dated myself) you could pickpocket NPCs, they rarely had anything of use, usually just a few coppers, maybe a silver, if you were lucky a gold. You get far more from selling trash loot than pickpocketing. More often then not you'd find things like a greasy comb, a torn dolly, a crumpled up note etc. Basically trash.
This is basically letting the player know that you'll allow this kind of thing in game, but he's wasting his time, much like the PCs working as farm hands, robbing peasants isn't really something that will challenge a heroic theif and isn't where the real gold is.
If/when he does fail I'd have the town watch demand a fine of some sort, I shy away from using the 'Town Watch' under all circumstances because PCs tend to eventually end up in combat with them and then jail and then your campaign is basically shot. But failing will cause that shop keeper to not do business with you or charge you 200% item value. It may also get you a reputation that spreads and suddenly people in the next town aren't trusting of you either and may request you do XYZ quest to put yourselves in good standing with them again.
Alternativly you can use this as an opportunity to pass the theif a questline. If the thief pickpockets an assassination notice or intercepts some secret message meant for someone else you could have some fun, or he could manage to steal a locket that belongs to someone's sweetheart or a broach that signifies the wearer as part of an underground network of some kind.
Up to you how you want to deal with the activity, either by dropping it to the sideline or letting it play a central role, but the last thing you want to do is outright disallow it or have him end up in jail.
Tolkein was a jerk. Seriously, what DM sends 9 Wraith Lords at a Lvl 2 party of Halflings.
The only 'correct' way to play D&D is by whatever method is making the group you have at that session, have the most fun.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 27, 2011 - 5:36PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2007
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Firstly, how do you deal with pick pocketing? Do you simply do a single Thievery check, or do you make it some sort of skill challenge? Also, what is a reasonable price if the character succeeds. For example, the player in my campaign joined another player to the stables. The other player bought a riding horse. When she was done with the transaction (75g), the thief decided to pickpocket the stable owner. Should I give him the full 75g if he succeeds?
A pick pocketing attempt is a single skill check usually, but it could be a skill challenge if the situation has to be setup with other skills. If the thief knows that a particular person has a particular amount of money on them, then yes, they should generally get it most or all. In general, it won't turn up much money though, as most people will just have small change in their pocket, even the wealthy will rarely have more then a few gp in their pocket.
Also, with picking pocket it's important to remember that the person who was picked will eventually notice the loss. In many cases, even if the attempt succeeds at the time, the victim will later work out who the thief was. In the example you give, if the stable owner then goes to put the cash in his lock box after the party leaves, he will instantly realize that the thief was the only one who could have taken the money.
If/when he does fail or get caught, a good option is to ruin his and the rest of the party's reputation. The party might realize that picking pockets is a high risk/low reward situation for adventurers when the price of everything goes up by 50% as the party's reputation gets around. Throwing him in jail, or having a fight with the local guards can also work. If you do go that way, cut down the XP they get for the fights/escape also. Otherwise you end up rewarding the players for their bad actions.
Jay
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2 years ago ::
Sep 28, 2011 - 2:29AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Oct 10, 2007
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Wait...does 50 coins = 1 pound still?
How would anyone hide the fact they just pocketed 75 quarters from a dudes pocket?
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2 years ago ::
Sep 28, 2011 - 2:33AM
#7
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Date Joined:
May 13, 2009
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Repalce it with a bag of rocks. He is a really pickpocket. Just because you can't figure out, doesn't mean he can't. That's his job and all. It's generally better to let people attempt thing you can't see happening and assume the character knows better then the player then to stifle people whenever they come up with something that makes no sense to you.
(Especially considering that anything that has the explanation of "it's magic" is generally exempt from it. If it were a magic spell to steal the gold, would you have made a fuss?)
Epic Dungeon Master Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen! Your Kingdom awaits!Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 28, 2011 - 8:14AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Oct 10, 2007
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Repalce it with a bag of rocks. He is a really pickpocket. Just because you can't figure out, doesn't mean he can't. That's his job and all. It's generally better to let people attempt thing you can't see happening and assume the character knows better then the player then to stifle people whenever they come up with something that makes no sense to you.
(Especially considering that anything that has the explanation of "it's magic" is generally exempt from it. If it were a magic spell to steal the gold, would you have made a fuss?)
The ability to stick your hand ina dudes pocket and fish out 75 quarters is not the same as casting a magic spell that teleports 75 quarters from his pocket to yours.
Let me explain it this way.
Party is level 2. They have 300 gold to spend as a group. They use this gold to buy a horse and steal said gold back.
They buy another horse, stealing the gold back. And, another and another.
Then they sell the two dozen riding horses to someone for 20% of the cost. 15 gold per horse x 12. Making 180 gold.
Now they take the 480 Gold and buy something that costs 400 gold. Stealing the gold back. The rogue doing the stealing has a 20 dex +5, a racial bonus +2 trained +5, skill focus feat +3 (or +5 now?) +1 for level. +16 at level 2.
They buy 10 things worth 400 gold stealing the gold back each time. And then move on selling the ten things for 20%. Gaining 800 gold. To add to the 400 they had.
Now they take the 1200 gold and start buying things that cost 1000 gold. Stealing the money back each time until they have 10 of them to sell somewhere else they now have 2200 gold. And start buying things that cost 2000 gold, stealing the gold back each time...
In a large city like Waterdeep this could be done without repricusions dozens of times. But hey it's cool it won't break the game.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 28, 2011 - 8:19AM
#9
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Repalce it with a bag of rocks. He is a really pickpocket. Just because you can't figure out, doesn't mean he can't. That's his job and all. It's generally better to let people attempt thing you can't see happening and assume the character knows better then the player then to stifle people whenever they come up with something that makes no sense to you.
(Especially considering that anything that has the explanation of "it's magic" is generally exempt from it. If it were a magic spell to steal the gold, would you have made a fuss?)
The ability to stick your hand ina dudes pocket and fish out 75 quarters is not the same as casting a magic spell that teleports 75 quarters from his pocket to yours.
Let me explain it this way.
Party is level 2. They have 300 gold to spend as a group. They use this gold to buy a horse and steal said gold back.
They buy another horse, stealing the gold back. And, another and another.
Then they sell the two dozen riding horses to someone for 20% of the cost. 15 gold per horse x 12. Making 180 gold.
Now they take the 480 Gold and buy something that costs 400 gold. Stealing the gold back. The rogue doing the stealing has a 20 dex +5, a racial bonus +2 trained +5, skill focus feat +3 (or +5 now?) +1 for level. +16 at level 2.
They buy 10 things worth 400 gold stealing the gold back each time. And then move on selling the ten things for 20%. Gaining 800 gold. To add to the 400 they had.
Now they take the 1200 gold and start buying things that cost 1000 gold. Stealing the money back each time until they have 10 of them to sell somewhere else they now have 2200 gold. And start buying things that cost 2000 gold, stealing the gold back each time...
In a large city like Waterdeep this could be done without repricusions dozens of times. But hey it's cool it won't break the game.
"Pickpocketing" is not really limited to literally taking something out of someone's pocket. The pouch of gold could just as easily been lifted from the cash register or from the counter. You're looking at things too literally. Skills in 4e should be looked at broadly and in an abstract fashion so that the players can get the most advantage from them to make the story interesting.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 28, 2011 - 8:20AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2010
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Maybe this will help.
Check the margin of a successful roll(M). Set the Top Money Value on how much the NPC has on him(X). Say that a margin of Ten is the maximum margin to steal all the money.
Equation:
( X /10) * M = Money stolen
Example:
NPC has 100 gold()
The rogue can take 10 gold with a margin of 1 (X/10)
Rogue rolls 20 on a DC 15, then he takes 50g.
Note if you do it again use the same X value.
Rogue rolls 21 on a DC of 15 again.
He takes 50g. Because there is only 50g in the NPC's pocket.
Ant Farm
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