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2 years ago ::
Sep 25, 2011 - 8:17PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Dec 10, 2008
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So the new and improved MB does not use the new MM3 guidlines for attacks, damage, initiative, etc.
My thought on this is that it's good to keep the old monsters as they were originally published for the sake of posterity and time saving on the development side so please, WoTC, don't update the old monsters, but instead DO set it up so that new monsters and edited copies of monsters use the new math automatically. Or alternatively, set it up so that newly created monsters use the new math automatically but edited copies of monsters can be converted with a button click or something as simple as just moving a level slider up and down.
Updating the numbers is still the biggest time sink for me using the MB, since I rarely make monsters from scratch but instead modify existing monsters.
Thoughts?
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2 years ago ::
Sep 26, 2011 - 1:14AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2006
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For the MB, I'd prefer a simple check box on the monster's page to let you decide whether you want the old or the new damage expression.
Huldvoll
---Baron von Bomberg
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2 years ago ::
Sep 26, 2011 - 1:07PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Oct 25, 2009
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For the MB, I'd prefer a simple check box on the monster's page to let you decide whether you want the old or the new damage expression.
This is an excellent idea. Choice is always good.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 26, 2011 - 9:57PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Sep 13, 2007
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For the MB, I'd prefer a simple check box on the monster's page to let you decide whether you want the old or the new damage expression.
This is an excellent idea. Choice is always good.
Sounds good on paper, but you really need to update powers one at a time. This may work 80% of the time with no problems, but if an attack has ongoing damage, status effects, secondary attacks, and possibly some things I havn't thought of the upped damage will be too much. A simple "reset" button like the old builder had for just about everything with a tool tip saying what the "reset value" will be.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 27, 2011 - 2:09AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2006
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Sounds good on paper, but you really need to update powers one at a time. This may work 80% of the time with no problems, but if an attack has ongoing damage, status effects, secondary attacks, and possibly some things I havn't thought of the upped damage will be too much. A simple "reset" button like the old builder had for just about everything with a tool tip saying what the "reset value" will be.
I'm not familiar with the intricacies of damage calculation and the monster-design procedures, but I'd imagine the damage to be constructed from the basic formula with modifications due to other effects. These modifications would either be formula-based as well or done via gut-feeling and hand-waving. Either way it should be possible isolate the contribution of the modifications and patch it to the changed formula. But, hey! I know that I tend to be a bit optimistic where design and construction of a software is concerned. May be my way as software test manager to evade harsh reality. 
Huldvoll
---Baron von Bomberg
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2 years ago ::
Sep 27, 2011 - 11:38AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Sep 13, 2007
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Sounds good on paper, but you really need to update powers one at a time. This may work 80% of the time with no problems, but if an attack has ongoing damage, status effects, secondary attacks, and possibly some things I havn't thought of the upped damage will be too much. A simple "reset" button like the old builder had for just about everything with a tool tip saying what the "reset value" will be.
I'm not familiar with the intricacies of damage calculation and the monster-design procedures, but I'd imagine the damage to be constructed from the basic formula with modifications due to other effects. These modifications would either be formula-based as well or done via gut-feeling and hand-waving.
Either way it should be possible isolate the contribution of the modifications and patch it to the changed formula.
But, hey! I know that I tend to be a bit optimistic where design and construction of a software is concerned. May be my way as software test manager to evade harsh reality.
Most of what I'm referring to is buried in text fields such as "...damage and 10 ongoing fire damage" or "...damage and the target is stunned". There is no way for the sofware to intelligently "know" that there is damage or other effects buried in the plain text fields. Damage is a simple average of 8 + level. So at first level you'd have d8 + 4 = 8.5 (vs 9) and be right on the money. If a given power was d8 + 4 "...damage and 10 ongoing damage" then you just converted the average damage to 23.5
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2 years ago ::
Sep 27, 2011 - 4:37PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2008
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Sounds good on paper, but you really need to update powers one at a time. This may work 80% of the time with no problems, but if an attack has ongoing damage, status effects, secondary attacks, and possibly some things I havn't thought of the upped damage will be too much. A simple "reset" button like the old builder had for just about everything with a tool tip saying what the "reset value" will be.
I'm not familiar with the intricacies of damage calculation and the monster-design procedures, but I'd imagine the damage to be constructed from the basic formula with modifications due to other effects. These modifications would either be formula-based as well or done via gut-feeling and hand-waving.
Either way it should be possible isolate the contribution of the modifications and patch it to the changed formula.
But, hey! I know that I tend to be a bit optimistic where design and construction of a software is concerned. May be my way as software test manager to evade harsh reality.
Most of what I'm referring to is buried in text fields such as "...damage and 10 ongoing fire damage" or "...damage and the target is stunned". There is no way for the sofware to intelligently "know" that there is damage or other effects buried in the plain text fields. Damage is a simple average of 8 + level. So at first level you'd have d8 + 4 = 8.5 (vs 9) and be right on the money. If a given power was d8 + 4 "...damage and 10 ongoing damage" then you just converted the average damage to 23.5
String parsing can do the trick. The question is how much effort do they want to put forth.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 27, 2011 - 8:31PM
#8
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- Dragon Slayer
- If only he would apply himself
- Dammit Jim, this is Star Trek, not D&D!
Date Joined:
Jan 31, 2006
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It's not a set amount, however. We know the average target damage level, but there is no number I know of for "if you also knock prone" or "if you also stun" or "if you knock prone, daze, and slide 4". It is a judgment call by the monster's author and the editors that review the work (and probably balanced by what the rest of the monster can do).
Because of that, I agree with Kenjoon. The MB should probably just state the average value for that monster's role and role next to the place where you edit the power. That way you can consider it and update it if you think it is worthwhile.
Think of this another way. They have Logan Bonner taking old monsters and upgrading them. Logan is a really good freelancer. They don't think just anyone can update old monsters, and Logan is even operating under a mission of not changing the monsters greatly. Software isn't going to replace Logan, because there is no suitable conversion without context. Two lurkers of the same level do not operate the same way, do not do the same damage, and need not be absolutely equally threatening.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 28, 2011 - 3:03AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2006
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Most of what I'm referring to is buried in text fields such as "...damage and 10 ongoing fire damage" or "...damage and the target is stunned". There is no way for the sofware to intelligently "know" that there is damage or other effects buried in the plain text fields. Damage is a simple average of 8 + level. So at first level you'd have d8 + 4 = 8.5 (vs 9) and be right on the money. If a given power was d8 + 4 "...damage and 10 ongoing damage" then you just converted the average damage to 23.5
This shouldn't be an unsurmountable problem. Say your power has an damage expression like "1d6+2 damage and 5 ongoing damage". The usual, no-frills damage expression for a power at this level would be 1d8+2. This means that the author saw fit to reduce the raw damage by 1 die size and -2 absolute. If the new regular damage expression would be 1d10+8 instead of 1d8+4, we can apply the same modification (-1 die size, -2 absolute), and arrive at 1d8+6. Add in the +10 ongoing as before and arrive at an average damage of 25.5 points as opposed to 23.5 in the old version. The big jump is due to the +10 ongoing damage, not due to the change of the basic damage expression. So just detach mdoifications from the regular damage, convert the regular damage, apply the same modifications and you have upgraded, which maintains the old design of the power's damage. This, of course, wouldn't change the design of the damage of a power, so if it was broken before, it will remain broken.
Huldvoll
---Baron von Bomberg
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2 years ago ::
Sep 28, 2011 - 3:13AM
#10
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Date Joined:
May 13, 2009
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Ongoing damage is actually the easiest to convert. It's worth about twice it's value in raw damage unless it's a very easily resisted type on an iconic monster or on a monster that is supposed to be used in packs, in which case it's closer to being worth once it's normal damage.
It's the other ones that are hard.
Of course the really easy solution is to just up all old monsters damage by the proper percentage because that's how much more dangerous they're supposed to become.
The best solution is to have someone do it by hand, which seems to be the current case. That way you can be sure there's no sneaky exceptions.
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