After further calculations, typing the dragon shards would bring it in line. Still leaves it as a stong and easy option to bump damage. But it won't be stongest and easyest.
I think the way that damage could be brought in line is the following: You have ways of getting feat, item, and power bonuses to damage. If it is from a feat, it is a feat bonus. If it is from an item, it is an item bonus. Each of these is +1 per W independent of tier.
You have stat and enhancement bonuses.
Make a few tweaks here and there, but that should work.
Man i thought this was going to be a boring thread good work SquashuaY lol!
And as for my own opinion (this is after all an opinion thread Andrakin) frost cheese = easy way to do damage: therefore it is cheese. nothing wrong with that but unless we're trying to *win* why not use those feats for something interesting, after all this is chaop we find NEW abuses.
I agree that this is an opinion thread. Honest disagreement can make for lively discourse.
However, there is a good way and a bad way to express your opinion. So, it's not the difference in opinion that bothers me, it is the difference in approach in expressing that opinion that bothers me.
In this situation, I believe Awesomologist presented an honest, methodical case for his viewpoint and went out of his way not to be offensive. On the other hand, SquashawaY clearly went out of his way to make fun of Awesomologist for having a different opinion. He didn't really support his case. Instead, he elaborately misrepresented Awesomologist's viewpoint and made fun of his argument based on that misrepresentation. Besides being intellectually dishonest, it's childish.
It's not as though they're knocking prone at-will (polearms, flails, KAM), creating party vulnerabilities (radiant mafia), bullying the enemies (sliders/pushers and zone abusers), Psionic spammers (every psionic class that holds on to superior Heroic tier at-wills), or finding ways to stun/daze lock the enemies (3 themes now that can daze per encounter?). Those are much harder things to DM against and build encounters for. But Frost? Frost is just damage.
As the person you responded to said, it's just not very creative.
And yeah, my group of friend will definitely roll their eyes at you if you show up to an LFR table with a radiant mafia, gang of superchargers, frostcheese, KAM dude, a fly guy, or anything related to mounts.
It's not like they won't let you play, but they will certainly roll their eyes at you, and those friends that do take such tricks typically apologize in advance and get crap for it. It's not like we're not a bunch of powergamers, it's just a creativity thing. We certainly appreciate having morninglords at our tables.
It's not your job as DM to tell a player if you think his character is "creative enough". The creativity the DM brings is in the form of the story they want to tell and to allow the players to then add their creative input. Who cares it it's just another ranger with a frost bow getting extra damage and some combat advantage? If you're worried about the optimizer or power gamer in your group all you can do is try to wrap them up in the story while presenting them with meaningful challenges. It's hard to balance especially if others at the table aren't optimizers, but it is doable.
As for LFR, well I've never cared for organized play much so I'll just chalk up "Tables full of eye rolling DM's using someone else's adventure" as another reason not to care. That said I'm glad you're able to enjoy the game that way. Different strokes.
Player: You know what, if you want me to wear 37 pieces of flair, like your pretty boy over there, why don't you just make the minimum 37 pieces of flair? DM: Well, I thought I remembered you saying that you wanted to express yourself. Player: Yeah. You know what, yeah, I do. I do want to express myself, okay. And I don't need 37 pieces of flair to do it.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
It's not your job as DM to tell a player if you think his character is "creative enough". The creativity the DM brings is in the form of the story they want to tell and to allow the players to then add their creative input. Who cares it it's just another ranger with a frost bow getting extra damage and some combat advantage? If you're worried about the optimizer or power gamer in your group all you can do is try to wrap them up in the story while presenting them with meaningful challenges. It's hard to balance especially if others at the table aren't optimizers, but it is doable.
This.
It doesn't matter how innovative, subtle and inventive your assembly of feats, powers, racial options, themes and items to generate DPR is, Bob the Striker is going to be less creative than a generic elven bow ranger with frostcheese named Morgorth the Bloodbooned, survivor of the devastated Ch'renoth clan, seeking to reunite his people after the Great Maelstrom scattered them to the far corners fo the globe. Story and fluff means a lot more to an interesting character than mechanics.
It's not your job as DM to tell a player if you think his character is "creative enough". The creativity the DM brings is in the form of the story they want to tell and to allow the players to then add their creative input. Who cares it it's just another ranger with a frost bow getting extra damage and some combat advantage? If you're worried about the optimizer or power gamer in your group all you can do is try to wrap them up in the story while presenting them with meaningful challenges. It's hard to balance especially if others at the table aren't optimizers, but it is doable.
This.
It doesn't matter how innovative, subtle and inventive your assembly of feats, powers, racial options, themes and items to generate DPR is, Bob the Striker is going to be less creative than a generic elven bow ranger with frostcheese named Morgorth the Bloodbooned, survivor of the devastated Ch'renoth clan, seeking to reunite his people after the Great Maelstrom scattered them to the far corners fo the globe. Story and fluff means a lot more to an interesting character than mechanics.
I'm gonna add another +1 to this and Awesomologist's statement, and add a little note:
Expecting all players to be as creative as you is its own special brand of dumb. Looking down on players who are not as creative as you is arrogant. Giving crap to players who are not as creative as you is a good way to drive people away from a great game.
Think for me, what was your first rpg character? Was it Morgorth the Bloodbooned, or Bob the Striker? Maybe you named him Legolas to get your friends to laugh with you, because you were all 12 and the only kids in your grade who had actually read The Lord of the Rings.
I'm sorry, but I think it a sign of poor character to judge players for choosing more pedestrian characters when it could just be the first ranger they have ever played, or they are teenagers awkwardly trying to get into a game that lets them forget the jocks who trip them in the hallways, or they were taking care of the baby all day while their wife was sick and didn't have time to put together a fantastic character, or they want to play the dnd representation of the main character in the book they have always wanted to write but never had the courage to, or no matter how hard they try they can't seem to come up with anything fun that they haven't already seen on the CO several times, or they just plain don't care how creative the character is, they will have fun playing the same ranger every game day for their entire dnd career.
I think it is exremely harmful to dungeons and dragons when those with the time, inclination and experience to put out a polished character refuse to allow those with less the opportunity to participate on their own terms.
I think we're all jumping to conclusions here a bit. For all the reasons you gave Alpha, it could just as easily be the case that Morgoth the Bloodbooned has a great backstory related to cold because the player wanted to take advantage of Wintertouched and Lasting Frost.
Who knows?
No need to assume either way.
The combo is cheesy because we see it in every DPR build. That's pretty much it. It doesn't get added to those builds for appropriate thematic reasons. It gets added to those builds for the simple purpose of increased accuracy and damage. It has nothing to do with character creativity and everything to do with eking out a mechanical advantage.
If my first experiences with Permafrost were at the game table, I probably wouldn't have batted an eye. But since I only ever saw it blow up here on this board, it's simply tainted for me. I've played in three paragon games (two are currently still running) and no one is using the combo. I suspect it isn't as popular at actual games as it is on this board, but I admit that that hunch is based on absolutely nothing.
Expecting all players to be as creative as you is its own special brand of dumb. Looking down on players who are not as creative as you is arrogant. Giving crap to players who are not as creative as you is a good way to drive people away from a great game.
I agree 100%. In addition, being on these boards doesn't tend to make people more creative, only better educated about what others have played.
For example, I have been heavily playing a barbarian charge cheese build recently and a lot of people were commenting on my originality. Of course, charge cheese isn't original. What was original, for them, is that it was a halfling barb with really good defenses, and I was really roleplaying up the halfling aspect. However, I know other people on these boards with halfling barbarians very similar to mine. In fact, I got the idea from these boards.
In short, I'm educated enough that I rarely think the builds I see in play are creative mechanically. Don't get me wrong, I have played with some creative builds I've never seen on these boards.
What is creative for me is the mixing of mechanics with the character concept and fluff. So Bob the frost ranger isn't interesting to me, but Bob the Frost Dwarf, sworn enemy of Auril is interesting.
I would also never make fun of someone whose character I thougth was uninteresting, as it might be interesting to them. For example, I've found that many times people playing very classic concepts (e.g., dwarven fighter, or elven ranger) who just sit and nod at the table do have a big back story and a highly developed concept, but are simply playing the strong silent type.
I tend to play LFR and other organized play modules. I DM one of the weekly D&D encounters tables, as well as an epic level home game. So as a DM who regularly runs modules, I will say this:
On average, player damage is too low at paragon tier.
Frost cheese was never cheesey. Beyond the PHB Ranger, most strikers just do not do enough damage in an encounter, let alone non-striker classes. Because they deal so little damage, many encounters drag on and on without actually being fun or tactically interesting. The recent trend in LFR modules is for monsters to stack conditions, terrain effects, auras, and their own abilities to basically have full-on action denial vs. the players. Because of this, builds that focus on alpha-strike nova potential are popular, or builds that can do their thing while dazed/immobilized etc.
I'm in favor of granting the same tools that frost enjoys to other damage types; I think as the game goes on, this will begin to naturally happen. Currently, Frost and Radiant lead in terms of direct damage. Lightning, thunder and Psychic enjoy solid control elements, but lack striker damage options (and frankly due to their current support probably should not gain more damage). That leaves Fire and Untyped as the elements in need of buffing.
Really, a lot of the game's issues occur from [W] and fixed rolled damage not scaling up high enough to be useful. This has always been a problem; Wizard fixed dice damage spells have always been laughably bad compared to the control options, and a [W] increase to damage is great at low and mid heroic but completely irrelevant at paragon.
The new MM3 damage expressions help to speed up the game and put a sense of danger back in it; non-striker damage (and low fixed dice damage strikers like Monks) needs a significant boost, probably to the tune of 25 to 33% in my opinion. TTK (time to kill) calculations have been done time and time again showing this; a heroic tier non-striker starts off with a 4 round TTK and ends up being 6 or higher by paragon, all the way to an abysmall 8 or 10 TTK at epic. Look at the significantly beefier Gamma World dice expressions to see that Wizard's R&D recognized this problem; Gamma World's monsters and players damage expressions used the revised expressions that were later incorporated into MM3.
In part this is all a legacy problem. Paragon and Epic tiers were never playtested correctly, and the math flaws of the system inherent to it were never addressed before D&D 4th Edition was released. Frost damage adders were, for the longest time, one of the few ways for a character to make up for the mathematical drift between tiers; remember, all of those frost damage increases are only available at the paragon tier to begin with, and the Dragonshards were not out until the Eberron book was released!
Beyond a complete overhaul of the base math (an impossibility), items and feats allow for "patching". A common house-rule is free expertise for this very reason. The expertise and various defensive feats are being given interesting and useful riders to make their "tax" status less onorous. One day, I hope a full range of damage increasing feats is available, and that the player base can come to regard them as mathematical fixes the same way they do the expertise feats. Strangely, the lack of scaling damage seems to be accepted, and anyone who rejects this is an Optimizer (polite term for power gamer).
In conclusion, a lot that all of us want is for our characters to be as effective at level 12 as they were at level 1. Without feat and item support, this is not possible due to mathematical flaws of the system. So no. Frost is not "cheesy"; it never was to begin with. A simple look at the numbers and mathematical analysis of player character damage proves this point; I won't re-iterate the various benchmarks and analysis that have already been done by others.
