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2 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2011 - 1:25PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2010
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Hi there, I personally really like D&D 4e + Essentials  But i have to say that there are some issues with D&D. My players won´t play it because it doesn´t feel magic anymore. It´s a good tabletop game but not really suited as a rpg. So i´m stuck with Earthdawn 3rd edition at the moment but i can see a light at the end of the tunnel: Dungeon Crawl Classics ! I downloaded the beta rules and i have to say: i´m in love with it :D OD&D mixed with a modern rule base and magic that feels like magic, unpredictable outcomes :D But there is one big difference opposed to old D&D the warrior is the strongest class I know i will get a lot of abuse now but a) english is not my native language and b) i like D&D 4e and we should enjoy our hobby and not fight over other rpg´s. we´re a minority anyway so keep playing what you like :D
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2 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2011 - 2:43PM
#32
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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You can do all kinds of silly things with 4e PCs and not run into huge problems. Egocentric said something about 'balanced on a knife edge', but I think exactly the opposite is true. The game has a DEEP balance that isn't made up of any one thing.
3.x could be 'balanced on a knife edge,' though, really, it was more balanceable. Played straight, it didn't really balance, but it could be balanced (on that knife edge) if the DM worked at it and/or the players showed a lot of restraint. AD&D simply wasn't balanced, at all, and probably wasn't really balanceable, as presented, either (especially the 1st ed - not that anyone played it as written). 4e did create some robust class balance by moving to a common structure of 'powers,' and it's encounter balance was much improved and simplified. Essentials abandoned that common structure, so is balanced on that knife again (but at least not on the edge) with respect to classes - at least it's balanced played straight, rather than needing you to go looking for the balance point...
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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2 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2011 - 3:53PM
#33
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I recently decided to check out what D&D looks like these days, after not having played since before that newfangled 2nd edition stuff was published. I bought the new red box and Heroes of Fallen Lands, which I'm nearly done reading from cover to cover (other than the adventure in the DM book of the red box, which I skipped). And I showed up to an open game at a local comics and gaming shop last Sunday to play my first session with this version.
I like a lot of the details of 4th edition, and I can nitpick some other details if I wanted to (Halflings get a constitution bonus?!?!). But my first impression so far is that the big picture got lost along the way. This isn't a role playing game - it's a miniatures combat board game. The rules seem to be ENTIRELY focused on combat. ie The hypnosis spell does damage. Clerics get a spell to create water, but nothing to create food. The wizard's flying spell only lasts for one combat turn - good enough for an attack, but not to actually go anywhere. The range on the teleportation spell is measured in squares, rather than miles - again, useful in combat, but not for actual transportation.
In my session on Sunday, we played 3 encounters, with very little other than combat going on, and it took 6 hours. And we didn't even finish any of the 3 battles - the DM decided they were taking too long and cut them all short with "You've killed more than half of them. That's good enough." I'm sure a better DM could have injected more role playing into the game, but this seemed to be pretty much what the regular players there were expecting. At one point in the 3rd encounter, I was debating if I should use my daily power or save it for later, and I was told by one of the other players that sessions are always exactly 3 encounters long, so there's no point saving the daily stuff once you reach the 3rd. Huh??? What happened to wandering around, exploring, having some small encounters between the big battles, and maybe even some non-combat stuff going on? First edition D&D and AD&D were never this predictable!
I'm hoping my bad experience last weekend was just because of the quality of the group and DM that usually meet at that store, and finding a better group will improve the experience. But in searching around for a gaming group, I went to a "meet and greet" event for one RPG group that I found through meetup.com, and all the experienced players there seem to look down on 4e. Their main complaints seemed to be that combat takes forever, and it's impossible for players to die. From what I've seen so far, I can see their point. The group leader volunteered to DM a long term campaign with 6 of us, but he insisted on making it Pathfinder, which the other players who have played recent versions all agreed was a good idea. So I bought the core rulebook for PF, and I'm kinda curious as to what that's like. I plan to finish reading Fallen Lands this weekend, then start reading the Pathfinder rules.
I'm still planning to give 4e another chance. I may even go back to the group I played with last weekend, since playing combat miniatures can be fun once in a while in its own right. But I'm hoping I can find a group for an ongoing campaign with a DM who realizes this is supposed to be a role playing game, not just a combat board game. But from what I've seen so far, I'm not overly impressed.
Carpe DM - Seize the Dungeon Master!
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2 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2011 - 4:23PM
#34
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Date Joined:
Jul 23, 2008
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The digital side of D&D seems to be doing well, at least by the number of subscribers; it's a pretty big number. The digital tools have been difficult for Wizards to meet fan expectations, if not mishandled several times by them in the past.
D&D Encounters is doing well; well enough that they are now on its sixth season. When it first started Wizards only planned for a few seasons and were pleased by its success. D&D Assault lair is a sign of the D&D Encounters doing well. In fact, Forge of the Dawn Titan is rumored to be in hot demand.
The slow down in book releases and lay off of personnel is indicative that sales are down. If 4th was selling off the shelves then I couldn't imagine a decrease in book production (money is money, after all). You can believe it's because they want more quality than quantity- I don't. They could hire more staff to manage the editing and what not (you would have to be having profits for that).
4th has succeeded in dividing the fan base right in half. That was unfortunate (well, not if you are Paizo).
The hiring of Monte is good for the D&D brand but it might spell the doom of certain aspects of 4th. Monte, rightfully, can be seen as a camp opposite of Heinsoo and Collins; I can't shake the feeling that Monte dislikes 4th edition but there isn't much to quote him on.
I have no idea if Essentials is doing well. I would love to know but I there is little concrete evidence. In my area, which is anedoctal evidence in one demographic area, my favorite FLGS orders 4-6 4th edition books to about 30 Paizo books with each new release. That makes me a sad panda.
All I know is that virtually all of the designers I like are now gone from Wizards- and that makes me a very sad panda.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2011 - 4:39PM
#35
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Date Joined:
Jan 27, 2008
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But my first impression so far is that the big picture got lost along the way.
Or maybe it got picked back up.
This isn't a role playing game - it's a miniatures combat board game.
It is still an RPG, the 2 are not exclusive.
Correct meif I am wrong, but didn't D&D start as a mini's combat game...
4E still has more role playing built into it then Basic D&D, and even AD&D 1st edition. Not one is claiming that thry were not RPG's.
Actually thanks to hard coding in skill challanges, and all the sections like quests and world building in the DMG 4E probably has significantly more RPG material they did.
The rules seem to be ENTIRELY focused on combat.
They are not, but conflict does require significantly more rules work to then social encounters.
Actually the skill system covers pretty much everything you would want in most social encounters and uses verry little rules space.
Clerics get a spell to create water, but nothing to create food.
There is an item that creates food, and ones for other consumables...
The wizard's flying spell only lasts for one combat turn - good enough for an attack, but not to actually go anywhere.
please re-read the power, Fly the level 16 wizard utility power has a sustain line, it lasts as long as the wizard is able to pay the sustain cost. Plus there is at least one other flight option that last significantly longer.
The range on the teleportation spell is measured in squares, rather than miles - again, useful in combat, but not for actual transportation.
That is because you are looking at the combat spells, there are transportations magics that streach into miles, that have been there since day 1.
What happened to wandering around, exploring, having some small encounters between the big battles, and maybe even some non-combat stuff going on? First edition D&D and AD&D were never this predictable!
It is called organized play, or it might have been a delve (a short 3 encounter miini-adventure). They have to remove allot of things from organized play if they want it to move smothly. There are longer adventurers out there with more things you can do between encounters, but they can not be run easily with out a regular and reliable group of players.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2011 - 5:01PM
#36
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I have play Adv. Dnd, 3.0, 3.5 and 4th edition save my Dnd. It's not perfect and they have done a lot of mistake.
But it's far better than Dnd 3.5.
I recently play a level 11 Hexblade. That was cool. Tel 3 square at will, making melee, ranged attack, summoning my personal devil servant.
Dnd 4 give the player the feeling of power. I play enough old Dnd to know about the feeling of being fragile, helpless and useless.
Our group dont feel the problem of combat length. Sometime they take longer, but often cause by a lack of finishing move on monster.
But long combat or not, we are still playing Dnd. 1 or 2 or three combats in a session, who realy care?
The point is: Is the combat challenging and fun. If the answer is "yes", time dont matter.
In dnd 4 the players have complex characters with of lot of kinky tricks.
As the level get higher the DM have to be very well prepared to challenge them.
You can no more prepare a high level character on the spot, and high level monster need to be read
and prepared before they go to fight.
Dnd 4 is a far more complex game than dnd 3.5.
The pacing is good and we waste no time preparing spells and finding a place to sleep.
For me I dont see a 5th edition coming out. They will progressivly change the game.
Some old material will become useless, but they wont make another edition.
F
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2 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2011 - 5:04PM
#37
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But my first impression so far is that the big picture got lost along the way.
Or maybe it got picked back up.
This isn't a role playing game - it's a miniatures combat board game.
It is still an RPG, the 2 are not exclusive.
Correct meif I am wrong, but didn't D&D start as a mini's combat game...
4E still has more role playing built into it then Basic D&D, and even AD&D 1st edition. Not one is claiming that thry were not RPG's.
Actually thanks to hard coding in skill challanges, and all the sections like quests and world building in the DMG 4E probably has significantly more RPG material they did.
The rules seem to be ENTIRELY focused on combat.
They are not, but conflict does require significantly more rules work to then social encounters.
Actually the skill system covers pretty much everything you would want in most social encounters and uses verry little rules space.
Clerics get a spell to create water, but nothing to create food.
There is an item that creates food, and ones for other consumables...
The wizard's flying spell only lasts for one combat turn - good enough for an attack, but not to actually go anywhere.
please re-read the power, Fly the level 16 wizard utility power has a sustain line, it lasts as long as the wizard is able to pay the sustain cost. Plus there is at least one other flight option that last significantly longer.
The range on the teleportation spell is measured in squares, rather than miles - again, useful in combat, but not for actual transportation.
That is because you are looking at the combat spells, there are transportations magics that streach into miles, that have been there since day 1.
What happened to wandering around, exploring, having some small encounters between the big battles, and maybe even some non-combat stuff going on? First edition D&D and AD&D were never this predictable!
It is called organized play, or it might have been a delve (a short 3 encounter miini-adventure). They have to remove allot of things from organized play if they want it to move smothly. There are longer adventurers out there with more things you can do between encounters, but they can not be run easily with out a regular and reliable group of players.
He wouldn't know about rituals is the thing. Essentials isn't all of 4e is the problem. It lacks a LOT of options that exist in the full game. A 12th level Wizard (which is pretty much like say 9th level in 3.5 or AD&D) is able to summon flying mounts for the whole party and can summon ones that cross water at a lower level. There are numbers of flying items too. I'm pretty sure you could encounter winged sandals in heroic tier. There is also long range teleportation, scrying, etc all there.
He shouldn't be too critical of the DM doing Encounters either. Remember, this is a pre-set, basically one-shot dungeon intended to introduce new players to the mechanics of the game. It also changes every week, so there are times when there are non-combat options. The DM just runs it, like a module. If it gives him 3 combats to run, that's what he's going to be running. They gather feedback on the program, so presumably for the format of game that it is, they're providing what people want. It is definitely not supposed to replace normal gaming, and the idea is really that you'll hook up with people that play 4e and go play in a campaign somewhere.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
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2 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2011 - 5:23PM
#38
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Just to add onto the last two posts: Long story short its what you make it. If you make it primarily combat, then its gonna be combat oriented, if you make it role playing oriented, its gonna be a lot of role playing. The game is what you make it, and if you don't like it change it. Also yeah rituals do add quite a bit to the magical side they just aren't called spells any more.
Come to 4ENCLAVE for a fan based 4th Edition Community. “The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear.” - H. P. Lovecraft Games I Play: - D&D 4e - D&D 3.0 (Not 3.5) - AD&D 2e - Call of Cthulhu
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2 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2011 - 5:36PM
#39
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BlueGhost it sounds like you did a Delve, they're very combat oriented, an Encounters might have a little more roleplay at the beginning but is also a mechanics game, very light RP. RPGA has a bit more then both those but can be killed by people dropping in and out and lurchs between stories, you sort of jump from place to place.
You need a good sustained group. Stick with it and feel out some of the regulars for a good home game, 4e is very open to RP with the right crew. This game like all Social RPGs is very depenent on having a good group of men and women to play with. Bestof luck.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2011 - 6:11PM
#40
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For me I dont see a 5th edition coming out. They will progressivly change the game.
Some old material will become useless, but they wont make another edition.
That is kinda what they are doing with characters in encounters, right?
Essentials plus the latest book.
Pro DnD Member of the Axis of Awesome Fighters: Using socks to kill monsters since 2012 DnD Next: Now with more then 4 minutes of Roleplay per gaming hour Spoiler:
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"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion
"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk
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Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
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