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Sep 29, 2011 -- 4:16PM, wrecan wrote:

Sep 28, 2011 -- 4:48PM, XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek wrote:

Wrecan as much as you try to seem you like you know everything you don't succeed.  You said before that a Blacksmith may scrap what he has and start over.

Not from scratch.  he just has to correct that one mistake.  Does your alleged friend the blacksmith really start over from scratch everytime he hits the iron wrong with his hammer?  No, he does not.

The real essence of the thing though is story. The character is a blacksmith. He decides to make a sword. Now either this is just some side thing he's doing, say to make some money. There is no need for any complicated rule or dice to be involved in this case. The character has the means to achieve his goal, so he does. He makes enough money to keep himself in ale and a roof over his head for a week while the wizard is off doing whatever. If the whole "the dwarf is broke" thing is going to be elaborated into a story, then the making a sword part is going to be a minor aspect, or its going to be the goal of some sequence where the dwarf has to finagle his way into a place to work, a pass from the local guild, get the local constabulary off his back, deal with the local underworld, etc. Again there's no good story reason why if he maneuvers his way past all these road blocks that some toss of a d20 at the end should deprive him of the rewards.

If the dwarf is making a sword as part of a plot, say it is a magic sword that is needed to defeat some impending enemy, then again the adventure is going to focus on how the goal is accomplished, and again there would be no point in using a toss of a d20 at the end with a chance of depriving the character of the reward for his actions. Beyond that if the sword is needed for the story to proceed, then obviously the sword will be produced. If there's some other way for the story to proceed, then OK, make a skill challenge to have the sword be produced, but it is going to be a real boring and uninteresting skill challenge if it consists of repetitive cycles of the dwarf pounding on some iron and a check to see if he's got it right or not. So again the focus is going to be on overcoming various obstacles to getting the job done, and in that case maybe there are some Endurance checks or something in there as part of it if say the player says "well, I just work really fast and bust ass to get it done" but that isn't going to be the whole story.

Again, 4e provides a perfectly good set of appropriate DCs to use for ANY task that is worthy of being part of an adventure. There's just no need to have a set of craft rules that provide those DCs, because the right DCs are going to be governed by the level of challenge needed for the story, and fluff is going to explain why they are a certain level of DC. If it is a high level challenge, well, then the sword has to be made with certain materials, enchanted to a certain degree, marked with specific secret runes that need to be figured out, etc. At low level maybe all that is required is any old sword at all. The level of the adventure/challenge will supply an appropriate DC in all these cases.

Craft rules are okay. I really think they were more trouble than they were worth, though. If the storyline says that the PC will be able to make Item X, then he does. Period. If he is NOT meant to make it, then he fails. When the PCs begin wanting to craft items for sale, forgoing adventuring in lieu of setting up shop and making things, then it's a problem. Being able to make a sword is a nice background trait for a PC to have. Being able to make a hundred swords is okay, too. But when the PC decides he's better off making swords instead of slaying monsters, then the game loses its intent. There are other games that handle this sort of thing better than D&D ever has.

The intent of D&D was never that the adventurers are craftsmen who cross the lands, selling their wares to passers-by. Sure, you CAN play it that way, but why would you? That's like playing Scrabble, but changing the rules to mirror Monopoly. You could do it, but why would you when Monopoly works just fine? If I want to play a vampire who is part of a clan that exists in the darkness but plays political and social games with mortals to further my own cause, then I will play World of Darkness. I won't manipulate D&D to allow me to play that way just so I can continue to call it D&D.

Sep 30, 2011 -- 4:22PM, Zardnaar wrote:

The university group is either defunct or playing white wolf IIRC. No RPG stores at all although their is a hobby store selling Magic and Warhammer.

It all rests on YOU man! You must swear an oath of poverty and start an FLGS! (trust me, the poverty will come whether you swear or not). The best strategy is to find a girl with a lot of wealth to hitch up with, then things are much easier.