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2 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2011 - 9:51AM
#21
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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I realy am curious how many of those reviews are from people who never even bothered to read the book/try the rules (Note : playing a session going in wanting to hate it and not giving the rules a fair chance is NOT trying the rules)
The world will never now. (I share your curiosity)
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2 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2011 - 10:12AM
#22
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Date Joined:
Jan 27, 2008
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I realy am curious how many of those reviews are from people who never even bothered to read the book/try the rules (Note : playing a session going in wanting to hate it and not giving the rules a fair chance is NOT trying the rules)
The world will never now. (I share your curiosity)
If you want a laught you gan read the reviews and make a guess as to how many are did not try the game, or gave it a fiar trial.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2011 - 10:27AM
#23
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The game itself is great and I love it. There are tweaks I would make of course but that's everyone. I like options, I like that 4e and Essentials has 2 feels that work together. I like that there are fortune cards even though I avoid them, because some of my friends like them alot. I love themes and can't wait for it to be expanded even more. I think the game is great and the best game I've ever played socially.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2011 - 10:52AM
#24
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I've had a lot of fun running it too. I'm not sure 4e will ever hit the popularity of 1e in its heyday, or maybe even of 3.x in its, but it is one high quality game overall.
I really encourage people to hammer on it too. You can do all kinds of silly things with 4e PCs and not run into huge problems. Egocentric said something about 'balanced on a knife edge', but I think exactly the opposite is true. The game has a DEEP balance that isn't made up of any one thing. Surely if you give a PC some 500 DPR attack it is going to make things wonky, but only to a limited extent. There's a lot of territory in there between 'playing stock right out of the book', and 'this game doesn't work anymore'.
I gave a whole party artifacts, and not really super wimpy ones either. Did anything bad happen? No. They took on some moderately harder challenges than without them, but I'd say nothing absurd. They had some great fun with that, ran through it, gave the artifacts back, got some cool treasure, and went on their way.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
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2 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2011 - 11:39AM
#25
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2011
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I really encourage people to hammer on it too. You can do all kinds of silly things with 4e PCs and not run into huge problems. Egocentric said something about 'balanced on a knife edge', but I think exactly the opposite is true. The game has a DEEP balance that isn't made up of any one thing. Surely if you give a PC some 500 DPR attack it is going to make things wonky, but only to a limited extent. There's a lot of territory in there between 'playing stock right out of the book', and 'this game doesn't work anymore'.
This is one of the things that I love. You don't have to min/max to be effective. You can play around with goofy character concepts. And it is *almost* hard to build a completely broken character (as long as you don't dump your primary stat). I love that the within a couple of seesions, the complete newb can feel like a contributor next to someone who has been playing for years and knows the rules in three languages. Thd
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2 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2011 - 12:03PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2008
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I love that the within a couple of seesions, the complete newb can feel like a contributor next to someone who has been playing for years and knows the rules in three languages.
This is a very good point. While 4E does have a learning curve, I really don't think it is as high as previous editions (aside from OD&D, maybe). In 2E, for example, so many classes used so many different rules that it took some time to gain system mastery. Some played the entire 11 year life of 2E and would still not claim to have "system mastery". New players took a while to get into the groove of their character's full range of abilities/powers/spells/kits/NWPs/attacks per round/THAC0 advancement/Saving Throws and so on. When you decided to try a different character, you had an entirely new set of abilities/powers/spells/kits/NWPs/etc. to learn.
With 4E, once you get the hang of the AEDU structure, the rest falls into place quite easily. Everyone has the same skills. Everyone levels at the same time. With the Exception of a few classes, everyone uses a similar progression of power advancement. Once you understand it, that's it. Essentials threw a little wrench into this, but its really not a big deal in the slightest. I do believe the complete noob can contribute faster and in a more secure way with 4E than in previous E's.
In fond memory of Mark "Wrecan" Monack.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2011 - 12:10PM
#27
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I really loved 3.5. I'm an optomizer and I love making really strong characters. The issue was I kept having to tone stuff down because I'd be a one man party. I don't need to do that anymore in 4e. I can build my really strong character but it's still just one character in the group and normally only maybe worth 1.5-2 characters instead of being able to replace the whole party.
With how fast characters are to build now it's also much easier for me to get more into roleplaying. I don't really have to spend all my time trying to optomize a character I can just grab a 20, get expertise, and a superior weapon and go to town. So I can concentrate more on fleshing out the rest of my character and I'm having a lot more fun overall.
I know I've got players in my group who've been playing since 2nd ed and play a ton of other rpg's and 4e is their favorite out of all of them so far. It's tactical and there is a great ease of play factor that just makes it easier to have fun. I also don't get the comments I've heard in the past that it doesn't support roleplay. I think we've done more roleplay and cool characters now than at any point in previous editions. My DM especially loves the essentials slayer because of how basic it is you can really just go to town flavoring it any way you can imagine and it works. You couldn't really do that with a lot previous editions because of how much their rules forced certain things on you.
tldr: 4e gets 4 stars from me and my group.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2011 - 12:20PM
#28
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I love that the within a couple of seesions, the complete newb can feel like a contributor next to someone who has been playing for years and knows the rules in three languages.
This is a very good point. While 4E does have a learning curve, I really don't think it is as high as previous editions (aside from OD&D, maybe). In 2E, for example, so many classes used so many different rules that it took some time to gain system mastery. Some played the entire 11 year life of 2E and would still not claim to have "system mastery". New players took a while to get into the groove of their character's full range of abilities/powers/spells/kits/NWPs/attacks per round/THAC0 advancement/Saving Throws and so on. When you decided to try a different character, you had an entirely new set of abilities/powers/spells/kits/NWPs/etc. to learn.
With 4E, once you get the hang of the AEDU structure, the rest falls into place quite easily. Everyone has the same skills. Everyone levels at the same time. With the Exception of a few classes, everyone uses a similar progression of power advancement. Once you understand it, that's it. Essentials threw a little wrench into this, but its really not a big deal in the slightest. I do believe the complete noob can contribute faster and in a more secure way with 4E than in previous E's.
I know what you mean. Its crazy how long it takes to fully understand 2e. Like the wizards. I love mages, but they are fairly complicated, especially with the whole learning spells, and using spellbooks thing. That took me forever! But no character ever played even remotely the same. It is like reading a whole new book with each character. But 4th took that out and made it user friendly. You no longer have to sit and read the entire PHB again to understand your new role. This is where I think even more complaints came in. "Everyone does the same thing/damage" But I hate to break it to everone but none of its real. Its always been the same damage, its all dice rolls, with different elements and flavor text. Just because your using a sword doesn't make it any different than hitting someone with a quarterstaff (except the dice you use) its all melee, and all happens becasue a dice roll. Though THAC0 isn't that big of a problem to me, it did throw some people off. But basically I agree with everything you said. 4th Edition made it easier for new players to pick up and play. Also nice avatar picture lol.
“The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear.” - H. P. Lovecraft Games I Play: - D&D 4e - D&D 3.5 - AD&D 2e - Pathfinder - Call of Cthulhu
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2 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2011 - 12:43PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2004
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I realy am curious how many of those reviews are from people who never even bothered to read the book/try the rules
I recall seeing a "review" by some blogger who's supposed to be all good and whatnot. Jerkhole had this really annoying "sonic screwdriver" wannabe, but the crux of his hate on 4e was that...when he sat down and read the book in his FLGS (really carefully, he said!) he was like, "Huh?"
So, yeah, he was hating on it, and he didn't even play it. Just read the PHB, and as we all know, reading 4e when you're not used to it isn't exactly riviting.
(Note : playing a session going in wanting to hate it and not giving the rules a fair chance is NOT trying the rules)
Its funny how many people think that going in with hatred and bile on their tongue is giving it a fair try....
Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade." "Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall, "But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling Defenders: We ARE the wall! I've replaced the previous Edition Warring line in my sig with this one, because honestly, everybody needs to work together to make the D&D they like without trampling on somebody else's D&D. Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e! I am a hero, not a chump.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 23, 2011 - 1:04PM
#30
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I really encourage people to hammer on it too. You can do all kinds of silly things with 4e PCs and not run into huge problems. Egocentric said something about 'balanced on a knife edge', but I think exactly the opposite is true. The game has a DEEP balance that isn't made up of any one thing. Surely if you give a PC some 500 DPR attack it is going to make things wonky, but only to a limited extent. There's a lot of territory in there between 'playing stock right out of the book', and 'this game doesn't work anymore'.
This is one of the things that I love. You don't have to min/max to be effective. You can play around with goofy character concepts. And it is *almost* hard to build a completely broken character (as long as you don't dump your primary stat). I love that the within a couple of seesions, the complete newb can feel like a contributor next to someone who has been playing for years and knows the rules in three languages.
Thd
Yup, that is true.
I will go on to say that the GAME itself is pretty robust. If some player needs to do something that doesn't quite work by the letter of the rules, or if you want to do something strange like have a guy with a sword grafted on in place of his hand (happened in one of our games way back when) you can just do it. Make up something. It will work. Just take some existing thing and jigger it a little bit. Worst case you might have some player with a character that's a bit better than average. It is unlikely to break the game (and its house rules, just fix it if it does, it likely just means some minor restriction needs to be added or something). Even if it is a bit OP in a couple levels it will be just ordinary stuff.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
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