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2 years ago  ::  Sep 23, 2011 - 11:37AM #21
Nelphine
Date Joined: May 30, 2005
Posts: 864
Having used epic level characters (level 30) in 3.5E who ended up in an anti-magic field - MARTIAL characters got hit the hardest.  Their items stopped functioning, and then bam, they sucked.  Magic users ran out of the field, used magic that did something outside of the field such that the magic ended instantly, but the effect of the magic was then felt inside the field (classic example: create a mountain on top of their head oustide the field's range.  magic is purely used to create it, now it is a mundance item, which gravity drops on the bad guys head).

That being said, in 4E, powers are far less versatile than in 3.5E, so nowadays an anti-arcane (or anti-arcane/divine) field would have far greater influence on only a few characters.

But as a note, someone like a swordmage, or a bladesinger, would probably still have basic attacks to fall back on and would not be completely useless.

My actual suggestion for anti-magic fields is:  Use them as skill challenges!  Not as part of combat.   The group encounters a dreaded anti-magic field, and suddenly teleports + arcane abilities don't work - woe is them!  All right, now we have to make an Arcane check DC x in order to find the flaw in the field where your abilities do work that let you get out.  Make the field life-sapping too, so that you lose a healing surge for each failed check, and make it so that it requires 5 checks to actually shut down the field long enough to leave it.  Add in an entrapment effect; if you have any magic on you (including magic items, or arcane/etc abilities), you can't leave the field.

Taking that one step further:  Skill challenge IN combat.  Beholder has an old-school anti-magic field central eye, it affects: Divine/Arcane/Psionic/Shadow/Elemental/Primal abilities + Magic Items that are directly in the field.  Don't worry, all those awesome martial characters can't attack either because they're missing their +6 frost weapon that grants +8 (or more) to hit when all their feats are included.  The catch?  If you succeed on an appropriate skill check (minor action), you find a chink in the field that allows you to use such abilities until the end of next turn.  If you succeed on a more difficult check (standard action), you determine how to shut down one entire piece of the field until the end of the encounter (allowing one type of ability, or magic items, to be used).

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 23, 2011 - 11:40AM #22
Salla
Date Joined: Apr 3, 2003
Posts: 23,557
A PC shooting orcs with his crossbow might be cool ... if he weren't a 10 DEX Wizard without proficiency and with no enhancement bonuses because, hey, anti-magic.  "I miss.  I miss.  I miss."  Lots of fun, that.

There's a difference between 'hardship' and 'screwjob'.  You can make things more difficult without outright going 'you're hosed'.  What you are suggesting is definitely and unequivocably 'unfair at the expense of the game', and I certainly disagree that being a good DM EVER requires being unfair.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 23, 2011 - 11:47AM #23
oxybe
Date Joined: Mar 22, 2005
Posts: 5,176

Sep 23, 2011 -- 11:40AM, Salla wrote:

A PC shooting orcs with his crossbow might be cool ... if he weren't a 10 DEX Wizard without proficiency and with no enhancement bonuses because, hey, anti-magic.  "I miss.  I miss.  I miss."  Lots of fun, that.

There's a difference between 'hardship' and 'screwjob'.  You can make things more difficult without outright going 'you're hosed'.  What you are suggesting is definitely and unequivocably 'unfair at the expense of the game', and I certainly disagree that being a good DM EVER requires being unfair.




that's called the "commoner in a funny hat".

it's what happened to previous edition wizards at level 1-3 after a few encounters and at high levels once the GM's brain stopped functioning since he's been having it jump through hoops trying to stop the casters from breaking the game using the tools the books provide them and simply decrying "NULL MAGIC ZONE! (AKA: I'M TAKING MY BALL AND GOING HOME)"

because nothing builds more character then losing all your wizardly magic and having to resort to a mundane crossbow+dagger VS angry colossal dragon.

yup. "fun".

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 23, 2011 - 11:54AM #24
macleanbrad
Date Joined: May 1, 2010
Posts: 340
Then adjust, you make it sound like it's a computer game and I'm making you play Mario with no jumping. It's DnD, that crossbow in the Wizards hand can do what ever the hell you want it to do so that it can be fun.

   Boom this is an odd and complicated bow, it would take a lot of INTELLIGENCE to use but would be highly accurate for someone who is INTELLIGENT....Is there ANYONE who would happen to be INTELLIGENT that could use this bow...oh wizard take it fiddle with the nobs +5 accuracy

You can think outside the box. Don't be conventional(<-----derision)
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 23, 2011 - 12:07PM #25
GelatinousOctahedron
Date Joined: Jun 30, 2008
Posts: 5,740

Sep 23, 2011 -- 11:54AM, macleanbrad wrote:

It's DnD, that crossbow in the Wizards hand can do what ever the hell you want it to do so that it can be fun.




But what he wants his crossbow to do is to shoot lightning bolts, fireballs and paralyzing beams of psychic energy since he thinks that is fun.  That is why he is playing a caster instead of a ranger.

And you aren't forcing the martial PCs to think outside the box by making him go into an antimartial zone that forces him to rely on prayers or spells.

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 23, 2011 - 12:14PM #26
Kobold_Avenger
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: May 14, 2006
Posts: 469
For some reason i think Mac has never actually played 4th, or he would know that know amount of creativity is going help him hit with a crossbow. Then again it seems is subscribed to Insider. So I guess he is just delusional, or hates his players.
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 23, 2011 - 12:16PM #27
macleanbrad
Date Joined: May 1, 2010
Posts: 340
As for unfair. Ive done or had done to me:
1. Wake up naked in a backalley, with assassins ready to kill me. Not fair, but fun.
2. Been in unwinnable encounters and woken up unarmed on my enemies altar. Not fair, but fun.
3. Had my players pick wonderous items, from a lot, they were all cursed. Not fair, best fun we ever had. They still talk about the bag of holding that ate them all and transported them to a evil pocket dimension.
4. Had all of them swap minds and have to play each others characters. Unfair, was fun, particularly funny when the rogue couldn't stop touching the female wizards chest, she got him back though when he got back into his body I made him roll a disease check for what she'd done with his body, he failed.


Being unfair and changing the orthodoxy or conventional (derision) way a game is played is unfair and it's fun if it's done well. If it's not working against them, then they aren't acheiving anything. They're just going into another room and clear it out and another room and clear it out. Having four players walk into a room that each of them is walking on a different surface, fighter on the roof and wizard on the floor, rogue on a wall and cleric on the opposite wall, it's not fair when you're fighting spiders that can be on any surface, but it is fun.

Be unfair, it's okay as long as you're not being a dick and providing heaps of fun. I don't get complaints from an unorthodox encounter, i get repeat players.
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 23, 2011 - 12:20PM #28
Salla
Date Joined: Apr 3, 2003
Posts: 23,557

Sep 23, 2011 -- 12:16PM, macleanbrad wrote:

As for unfair. Ive done or had done to me: 1. Wake up naked in a backalley, with assassins ready to kill me. Not fair, but fun. 2. Been in unwinnable encounters and woken up unarmed on my enemies altar. Not fair, but fun. 3. Had my players pick wonderous items, from a lot, they were all cursed. Not fair, best fun we ever had. They still talk about the bag of holding that ate them all and transported them to a evil pocket dimension. 4. Had all of them swap minds and have to play each others characters. Unfair, was fun, particularly funny when the rogue couldn't stop touching the female wizards chest, she got him back though when he got back into his body I made him roll a disease check for what she'd done with his body, he failed.   Being unfair and changing the orthodoxy or conventional (derision) way a game is played is unfair and it's fun if it's done well. If it's not working against them, then they aren't acheiving anything. They're just going into another room and clear it out and another room and clear it out. Having four players walk into a room that each of them is walking on a different surface, fighter on the roof and wizard on the floor, rogue on a wall and cleric on the opposite wall, it's not fair when you're fighting spiders that can be on any surface, but it is fun.  Be unfair, it's okay as long as you're not being a dick and providing heaps of fun. I don't get complaints from an unorthodox encounter, i get repeat players.




Again, arbitrarily and utterly nerfing a character's abilities IS being a dick.

Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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2 years ago  ::  Sep 23, 2011 - 12:22PM #29
macleanbrad
Date Joined: May 1, 2010
Posts: 340

Sep 23, 2011 -- 12:14PM, Kobold_Avenger wrote:

For some reason i think Mac has never actually played 4th, or he would know that know amount of creativity is going help him hit with a crossbow. Then again it seems is subscribed to Insider. So I guess he is just delusional, or hates his players.






Magic Crossbow of always hits. It didn't take creativity or delusions.

We're not talking about breaking characters permanently, we're talking about changing "an" encounter. You'd be surprised about how much fun can be had by 5 players who don't see something coming.

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2 years ago  ::  Sep 23, 2011 - 12:35PM #30
Kobold_Avenger
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: May 14, 2006
Posts: 469
MAGIC crossbow, so it wont work will it because the anti-magic field stops magic? right? Or is it use- different-attacks-than-you-normally-do-because-the-dm-is-lame-field? A UDATYNDBTDILF?(thats a mouth-full)
I am Black/Green
I am Black/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both selfish and instinctive. I value growth and community, as long as they favour my own objectives; I enjoy nature, and I particularly enjoy watching parts of nature die. At best, I am resilient and tenacious; at worst, I'm uncontrollable and destructive.
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