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Sep 24, 2011 -- 10:02PM, zenasprime wrote:

Thanks Garthanos.

I'm sure I could build a thief like character from the rogue and play it as one well enough, it just wouldnt be the same as playing an "official" thief.  From looking at a lot of the early ability choices, however, verything looked like a slice-n-dice build with nothing really available for a player who wants to do something outside of blade work. 

Faral, level 1
Kenku, Rogue
Build: Aerialist Rogue
Rogue Tactics: Artful Dodger
Rogue: Sharpshooter Talent
Sharpshooter Talent: Sharpshooter Talent (Sling)
Background: Apprentice of Sinister Cabal (Apprentice of Sinister Cabal Benefit)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 11, Dex 18, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 18.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 11, Dex 16, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 16.

AC: 14 Fort: 10 Reflex: 16 Will: 14
HP: 23 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 5
TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +11, Thievery +9, Arcana +7, Perception +5, Bluff +11, Athletics +4
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +1, Endurance, Heal, History +1, Insight, Intimidate +4, Nature, Religion +1, Streetwise +4
FEATS
Level 1: Underhanded Tactics
POWERS
Rogue at-will 1: Duelist's Flurry
Rogue at-will 1: Palming Strike Sly Flourish
Rogue encounter 1: Dazing Strike
Rogue daily 1: Blinding Barrage

Duelists Flurry is barely damaging (but some basic control) if you apply underhanded tactics (its even less) .... Palming Strike might be useful = not sure - but Sly Flourish works with a sling ...  I was thinking grey mouser with the Arcana Background some of the new themes one was magicians apprentice? I think could go a step further and give an encounter power that dazzles the enemy

Bilbo Baggins was the expert sling user that inspires the sharpshooter part.

Being a thief is very much a "official" flavor of a rogue... the Rogue has many varieties of fighting styles it supports including making fine rapier wielding noblemen duelists.

Here is an odd idea give the essentials ranger who is a controller build a rogish background (burglar) and be sure to train thieving.... or perhaps multiclass in to rogue for additional roguish delights.

And if you really wanted you could build a non-combatant burglar basically you use LazyLord Powers flavor the warlords powers as diving behind your allies blades letting them do the killing (it might be fun if that is your schtick)  and ofcourse give him the Cat Burglar background (scales of war enables thieving), multi-class or hybrid both alternatives too. There are a few incentives even for a Warlord to put dex fairly high.(a few powers good for the LazyLord give dex riders)

 

It sounds like what you're going for is a sneaky character who has a variety of mobility- and distraction-based abilities to use in combat, and a versatile skill selection out of combat.  Given those goals, the Thief i probably the worst possible Rogue build choice, since all its abilities tend to center around stacking damage (it has lots of mobility, sure, but most of it is focused on getting you into the right spot with CA so you can sneak attack).  Of course, if you're interested in giving the Thief a try, you should go ahead, but based on everything you've been complaining about for four pages, it really sounds like you'd be much happier with an Artful Dodger.  As Garthanos demonstrated, the Artful Dodger will have way more combat tricks (due to their choice of encounter power and their having dailies), and many of them are focused around impeding enemies, blinding them, dazing them, knocking them over, or at high levels, even making them attack each other.  If you're looking for a trickster/thief character to do surprising, underhanded things in combat, the Artful Dodger is perfect.  I have a feeling if you play the Thief, and every combat round is deciding on which one of your 3 tricks to use to get yourself CA or bonus damage, you're going to get bored and resentful, and come back here to complain more about E-class design.

And honestly, I somewhat agree with you.  I understand the purpose of the E-martial classes, and people who have used them widely say they generally balance pretty well (which I commend the designers for--balance is one of the hallmarks of 4e over other editions, and it's harder to maintain with varied class construction), but I just have no desire to play one, because I love the breadth of options that 4e O-classes get.  I loved Rogues in 3e, but I always wished they could be "trickier" and do more complex things in combat, and now they can!  I saw you were asking before about ways to do "thief-like" stuff outside of combat through your class features, and I strongly recommend looking through the Rogue utility powers in PHB1, MP and MP2.  Like all classes' utility powers, they're generally combat focused, but some of them have out of combat use that's both helpful and flavorful for a thief (the level 2 at will utility that lets you move at full speed while stealthing with no penalty comes to mind).  If you're looking for more, check out Skill Powers in PHB3--for any skill you're trained in, you can choose a skill power instead of a utility power from your class at the appropriate level.  I haven't looked lately, but there are probably some interesting Thievery powers that could help you feel more like your Thief(or Scoundrel)'s thieving is actually supported by his class features.

Hope that helps! 

Sep 24, 2011 -- 4:34PM, zenasprime wrote:

Yes a Thief should be using thief like abilities in combat to "trip, blind, daze, immobilize or move around their opponents..." ...Sure I could play a Scoundrel as a thief, and role play myself as a burgler, and try to make my character fit the role despite the lack of thiefish combat abilities...

What lack?
The Rogue has (according to quick Compendium search):

26 powers that knock Prone (trip)
4 powers that blind
19 powers that daze
12 powers that immobilize
24 powers that Slide, 11 that push, & 3 that pull (move opponents around).

That's 85 of the 231 Rogue attack powers that are 'thief-like' - better than a third.

Sep 24, 2011 -- 10:02PM, zenasprime wrote:

The "less is more" method of Essentials Thief doesn't really work for me in this case and I just wanted to vent about my disappointement in the class and how the new Essentials design paradigmn made playing the character less fun then playing a character based on the core rules.  Misery loves company and all. 

Sure, I hear you.  But, 4e is still a pretty good game, if you ignore some of what Essentials has done to it (which can be hard with the on-line CB, I know). 

Maybe if the CB had a 'Core' option as well as the default Essentials-only option?