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9 months ago ::
Sep 12, 2012 - 8:20PM
#121
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2009
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Hello, I am a DM in a game and I have a problem player/character that I believe is using stealth in an OP way but I can't prove she/he is breaking the RAW.
Essentially the player is using a shade gloom-pact hexblade with a fairly large modifier to stealth. They also use twilight torches liberally to create areas of dim light to become hidden.
their actions usually go something like this. check for any concealment or cover, if none pop a twilight torch to create a bubble of dim light -> one with shadow->move action+stealth= Hidden
Next turn they attack->break stealth->twilight torch/ or postioned behind allies->move action+stealth= hidden again.
They repeat this with more finesse than I can describe because they are alot more wily than I initially believed. They have gone as far as using twilight torch in bright (Dark Sun Athas) daylight to make a bubble of dim light, i don't want to punish them and take that effect away but I'm on the fence if twilight torch can make a dim light bubble in areas of bright light.
If anyone has dealth with this before and has a solution I'd love to hear it. I read both stealth guides and other than putting in monsters that blast areas to disregard their hiding and lightly obscured defense buff (due to twilight torch) I can't get around to hitting them. My last resort is to sick a templar mindbender on him.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 12, 2012 - 10:27PM
#122
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I'd verify this in the following forum: The Rules of the Hidden Club: Targeting things you can't see in D&D pop a twilight torch to create a bubble of dim light -> one with shadow->move action+stealth= Hidden
That works. Next turn they attack->break stealth->twilight torch/ or postioned behind allies->move action+stealth= hidden again.
At the end of their turn, the benefits of One with Shadow end, in which case I think they loose their hidden status they just attained. Still, they're wasting a full turn doing no damage, so it doesn't really seem that powerful, and I'd be inclined to let them get away with it. You could have the monsters ready an action to attack after his character looses hidden though; that would work unless he decides to not attack at all.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 12, 2012 - 10:45PM
#123
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Date Joined:
Feb 23, 2012
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You could only become hidden from a target if you have concealment from that target. Dim light does not grant concealment from creatures that have low-light or dark vision.
And remember, you lose hidden at the end of the action that causes you to lose hidden. So say they move up to the target, if you move more than 2 squares you have to reroll your stealth check. It is also possible that just moving could cause them to lose stealth. They attack and they definitely lose stealth.
From what I read, the PC has concealment while in the twilight lantern area. As soon as you leave the area, you no longer have concealment against anyone looking at that area. Since you no longer have at least partial concealment, you lose hidden as per RC, pg 152.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 6:17AM
#124
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dim light -> one with shadow->move action+stealth= Hidden
Next turn they attack->break stealth->twilight torch/ or postioned behind allies->move action+stealth= hidden again.
Yes, it works. First time i've seen a shade used well.
However, they are only attacking every other turn. So unless everyone's doing it, he's hurting the team by giving team monster more time to beat up on other PC's.
Otherwise...
Anyone with low light vision/dark vision/tremmorsense will ignore the twilight torch.
Burst and blast ignore hidden (just blast the whole dim area).
Readied actions.
Minor for an active preception check.
Guess a square and attack at -5.
Run away (dark sun should have plenty of space).
guides
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my builds
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 6:28AM
#125
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Date Joined:
Apr 14, 2010
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Stealth is broken when an enemy rolls a higher minor action Perception check than the player's Stealth roll. So add one or more enemies with high Perception to find him.
Stealth is also broken when an enemy enters a player's square. If you use a couple of Large or Huge enemies, it won't be hard to run into the player even when they're hiding (unless they're behind a pillar or something).
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 10:04AM
#126
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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DM reponses to stealth:
- You know the square where you lost track of the dude. Odds are that's the square to attack blindly. (it's moderately hard to get tricks that let you move after you originally stealth)
- If you've got an idea where he might be, and a move action, walk around the area. You'll provoke when you try and enter his square (or walk by him), but trying to enter his square (and failing) will unhide him, as will the OA he might take.
- Truesight/Tremmorsight/Blindsight, et. all.
- AoE attacks
- Readied action (blast him when I see him)
- Combine 2&5... (N blasters ready actions to blow him up with encounter powers. One minion walks around the area of dimness trying to bump into him)
- Take the opportunity to just blow up the rest of the encounter instead?
- Edit: Spare minor actions? Chuck a d20 for a perception check and hope you get lucky.
- Edit: There's this weird area of dim light and you can't see a creature? Have you tried the center of that area of dim light? (if he's carrying the dim-light source, walk into/attack the center of the dim light source
- Talk to the player
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 10:09AM
#127
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DM reponses to stealth:
- You know the square where you lost track of the dude. Odds are that's the square to attack blindly. (it's moderately hard to get tricks that let you move after you originally stealth)
- If you've got an idea where he might be, and a move action, walk around the area. You'll provoke when you try and enter his square (or walk by him), but trying to enter his square (and failing) will unhide him, as will the OA he might take.
- Truesight/Tremmorsight/Blindsight, et. all.
- AoE attacks
- Readied action (blast him when I see him)
- Combine... (N blasters ready actions to blow him up with encounter powers. One minion walks around the area of dimness trying to bump into him)
- Take the opportunity to just blow up the rest of the encounter instead?
- Talk to the player
1 is super important. Unless you move AFTER you become Hidden, they know exactly what square you're in.
Also:
7.5: Spare minor actions? Roll perception. Sure, it's not likely since they beat your Perception+10 to become Hidden in the first place, but it's usually got a chance, and what else were you going to use that Minor Action for?
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 8:07PM
#128
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Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2009
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thanks guys. I'm going to try a few minor action perception checks and readied actions to attack after he breaks stealth and to find him. On top of this hidden problem is the constant proning of my monsters by the gloomblade and debuffing to attacks with the 2perEncount daze. It's annonying when it stacks with (my monster)attacking while prone (-2) attacking the gloomblade with concealment or invisibility (-2/-5) and the gloomblade debuff (-2)=-6 /-9 to attack a gloomblade after it hits boss monster. Eating a -6/-9 against a stealthy warlock that uses malicious shadow was really irking me and they are only level 7! makes me think how much more powerful it will be later on.
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9 months ago ::
Sep 13, 2012 - 8:24PM
#129
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thanks guys. I'm going to try a few minor action perception checks and readied actions to attack after he breaks stealth and to find him. On top of this hidden problem is the constant proning of my monsters by the gloomblade and debuffing to attacks with the 2perEncount daze. It's annonying when it stacks with (my monster)attacking while prone (-2) attacking the gloomblade with concealment or invisibility (-2/-5) and the gloomblade debuff (-2)=-6 /-9 to attack a gloomblade after it hits boss monster. Eating a -6/-9 against a stealthy warlock that uses malicious shadow was really irking me and they are only level 7! makes me think how much more powerful it will be later on.
By "boss monster" I assume you mean a solo. Solos are badly designed. They got some updates in the MM3 and Monster Vault that make them not suck quite as bad. Also most of the monster math was updated, you can adjust the pre-MM3 monsters to the new math. There is a chart in the DMG errata doc that'll help.
Basically most solos shed conditions at the start of their turn and now get multiple turns. Makes them much harder to lock down. Plus a solo by itself is generally simply not interesting (unless you design a custom one) so it is better to make it a bigger encounter. Say a normal encounter and the solo shows up in round 2-3.
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8 months ago ::
Oct 13, 2012 - 12:05PM
#130
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Date Joined:
Sep 16, 2008
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Just to add to your movement options . . .
The Purple Dragon theme grants you an at-will utility at level 1 - Focused Discipline. It's a stance that offers you 1 of 3 options each turn. One of the options is: After you hit an enemy with a melee basic attack, you can shift 1 square as a free action.
The MBA part is obviously a bit limiting, but it's nice for a stealth charger. You can hide after the charge and be in a position to make OAs.
Edit - Also, if you do make an OA, the stance will allow you to shift after that and hide again (assuming of course that you have a shift booster and something like cunning sneak).
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