I made an avenger/monk that I really like. However, I want to know is there ANY way to make him so he is effective using NO weapons (As in unarmed does more than a d4) without using anything from yet ANOTHER class?
Almost only an intellectual exercise as I like his build (it may have been errattad but I'm digging the whole 'valenar weapon training" applying to his implement attacks...{it lacks the weapon keyword...adds 2 damage to "attacks" } Since all of us in the groups have the same copies of the books, and our version of the character builder supports it [last release befor it went web based] we will consider it RAW until we enter a tourney or somesuch). Although I went with the less efficient scimitar to avoid any flurry issues (leaves a hand open).
I would prefer to keep him as a hybrid.
Try Elemental Initiate from Heroes of Elemental Chaos - gives you ki proficiency and a +2/1d6 punch.
Sorcerers actually work quite well for hybriding: for example, a hybrid rogue/storm sorcerer is going to have both the weapon and the implement he can always use in one hand, leaving his other hand open for other things, and the stats line up perfectly. With a hybrid Paladin/Sorcerer, it makes more sense to go for something like Dragon sorcerer, since the stats line up that way, and if you pick CHAladin powers, you can have a definite primary and secondary ability score. Also, paladin proficiencies mean you can wear your holy symbol, cast all your spells through it, and have sword-and-board or a two-hander available, plus one hybrid talent gets you heavy armor and heavy shields, making you one of the most survivable strikers in the game aside from the blackguard. If you pick the right Dragon Sorcerer powers, people won't even want to get near you, and when they do, they'll most often miss. To boost all of these choices, the "typical" racial picks line up PERFECTLY; Drow or halfling for the rogue/sorcerer, and dragonborn for the paladin/sorcerer.
--BladeMaelstrom
Surprised you didn't mention a Cleric | Sorcerer with BCL.
The only problem I have with those is the CHA or WIS decision you have to make - If you make both halves viable, you've got no secondaries, which means quite a few of your riders are going to suck massively. Add to that the fact that the paladin can off-strike better than the cleric and the rogue is already a striker, and you've got a good reason not to combine the two.
--BladeMaelstrom
Cleric|Sorcerer with BCL doesn't need to make such a decision. He's straightforward Str/Cha. Because he has the hybrid feat free due to starting out with an AC of 19, he can pick up Cosmic Soul.
After that, pick up Sorcerer attack powers and Cleric utilities as much as possible. Works out really well.
That explains your suggestion - play it like a sorcerer MC cleric without the major feat tax of all that power-swapping. In my mind, I was trying to make both halves equally viable, whereas you simply side-stepped that problem. Still, I prefer to have both primaries either the same or have one's primary and secondary be the other's secondary and primary, respectively. For example, a properly done TWF ranger and cleric hybrid lines up surprisingly well, plus if you pick the right feats, you can be a one-man army - self-healing, resistances, stick to hide for the feat slot that you don't need to fill with chain (crappy choice, really), and you can do amazing things with the morninglord PP and a radiant weapon.
Sorcerers actually work quite well for hybriding: for example, a hybrid rogue/storm sorcerer is going to have both the weapon and the implement he can always use in one hand, leaving his other hand open for other things, and the stats line up perfectly. With a hybrid Paladin/Sorcerer, it makes more sense to go for something like Dragon sorcerer, since the stats line up that way, and if you pick CHAladin powers, you can have a definite primary and secondary ability score. Also, paladin proficiencies mean you can wear your holy symbol, cast all your spells through it, and have sword-and-board or a two-hander available, plus one hybrid talent gets you heavy armor and heavy shields, making you one of the most survivable strikers in the game aside from the blackguard. If you pick the right Dragon Sorcerer powers, people won't even want to get near you, and when they do, they'll most often miss. To boost all of these choices, the "typical" racial picks line up PERFECTLY; Drow or halfling for the rogue/sorcerer, and dragonborn for the paladin/sorcerer.
--BladeMaelstrom
Surprised you didn't mention a Cleric | Sorcerer with BCL.
The only problem I have with those is the CHA or WIS decision you have to make - If you make both halves viable, you've got no secondaries, which means quite a few of your riders are going to suck massively. Add to that the fact that the paladin can off-strike better than the cleric and the rogue is already a striker, and you've got a good reason not to combine the two.
--BladeMaelstrom
Cleric|Sorcerer with BCL doesn't need to make such a decision. He's straightforward Str/Cha. Because he has the hybrid feat free due to starting out with an AC of 19, he can pick up Cosmic Soul.
After that, pick up Sorcerer attack powers and Cleric utilities as much as possible. Works out really well.
That explains your suggestion - play it like a sorcerer MC cleric without the major feat tax of all that power-swapping. In my mind, I was trying to make both halves equally viable, whereas you simply side-stepped that problem. Still, I prefer to have both primaries either the same or have one's primary and secondary be the other's secondary and primary, respectively. For example, a properly done TWF ranger and cleric hybrid lines up surprisingly well, plus if you pick the right feats, you can be a one-man army - self-healing, resistances, stick to hide for the feat slot that you don't need to fill with chain (crappy choice, really), and you can do amazing things with the morninglord PP and a radiant weapon.
Well, I wouldn't call it exactly really side-stepping the stat issue - primary stat for Cleric is Strength, primary stat for Sorcerer is Charisma. You don't exactly have to pick any Wisdom-using powers unless you really want to do so(aka Moment of Glory)
Sorcerers actually work quite well for hybriding: for example, a hybrid rogue/storm sorcerer is going to have both the weapon and the implement he can always use in one hand, leaving his other hand open for other things, and the stats line up perfectly. With a hybrid Paladin/Sorcerer, it makes more sense to go for something like Dragon sorcerer, since the stats line up that way, and if you pick CHAladin powers, you can have a definite primary and secondary ability score. Also, paladin proficiencies mean you can wear your holy symbol, cast all your spells through it, and have sword-and-board or a two-hander available, plus one hybrid talent gets you heavy armor and heavy shields, making you one of the most survivable strikers in the game aside from the blackguard. If you pick the right Dragon Sorcerer powers, people won't even want to get near you, and when they do, they'll most often miss. To boost all of these choices, the "typical" racial picks line up PERFECTLY; Drow or halfling for the rogue/sorcerer, and dragonborn for the paladin/sorcerer.
--BladeMaelstrom
Surprised you didn't mention a Cleric | Sorcerer with BCL.
The only problem I have with those is the CHA or WIS decision you have to make - If you make both halves viable, you've got no secondaries, which means quite a few of your riders are going to suck massively. Add to that the fact that the paladin can off-strike better than the cleric and the rogue is already a striker, and you've got a good reason not to combine the two.
--BladeMaelstrom
Cleric|Sorcerer with BCL doesn't need to make such a decision. He's straightforward Str/Cha. Because he has the hybrid feat free due to starting out with an AC of 19, he can pick up Cosmic Soul.
After that, pick up Sorcerer attack powers and Cleric utilities as much as possible. Works out really well.
That explains your suggestion - play it like a sorcerer MC cleric without the major feat tax of all that power-swapping. In my mind, I was trying to make both halves equally viable, whereas you simply side-stepped that problem. Still, I prefer to have both primaries either the same or have one's primary and secondary be the other's secondary and primary, respectively. For example, a properly done TWF ranger and cleric hybrid lines up surprisingly well, plus if you pick the right feats, you can be a one-man army - self-healing, resistances, stick to hide for the feat slot that you don't need to fill with chain (crappy choice, really), and you can do amazing things with the morninglord PP and a radiant weapon.
Well, I wouldn't call it exactly really side-stepping the stat issue - primary stat for Cleric is Strength, primary stat for Sorcerer is Charisma. You don't exactly have to pick any Wisdom-using powers unless you really want to do so(aka Moment of Glory)
True, one of the cleric's primaries is strength, but even if you build a strength-primary cleric, you still have to deal with one of your class features and approximately half of your available attacks being based on wisdom, not charisma, which kind of drags down half your build - either you limit your choices on one side, or you limit your overall effectiveness on the other.
The cleric no longer should have a class feature that keys off wisdom. Seriously, from an effectiveness perspective no one should be taking healer's lore anymore. Especially not hybrids, until they errata BCL.
And regular clerics make that trade off of strength vs wisdom all the time. I think for the most part unless your goal is to build a cleric with a huge variety of particular powers to begin with (ie you want both righteous brand and brand of the sun or something similar) you are better off picking either all strength or all wisdom. Its not like the cleric doesn't have at least one good choice every level and great choices most levels for both strength and wisdom.
And at this point its close to 2/3rd of a clerics powers that key off wisdom because of all the warpriest support.
I'm doing pretty well with my Genasi cleric/paladin right now...you don't lose much from either class, and can actually turn out to be a pretty effective tank/healer as well. They also can cancel any deficiencies in the other class with respect to stats, if ,of course, you pick carefully.
I'm doing pretty well with my Genasi cleric/paladin right now...you don't lose much from either class, and can actually turn out to be a pretty effective tank/healer as well. They also can cancel any deficiencies in the other class with respect to stats, if ,of course, you pick carefully.
That's the problem for those of us who rely on the occasional gift, their local library, or some random extra cash to get our materials - having the full range of choices. If i'm limited to strictly the books I own, as well as the fact that I'm not a subscriber, I end up with very few choices. Unless you have access to all the materials so that you can get the sky-blue and gold choices, rather than blue or black, your hybrid ends up being rather ineffective for two reasons; the first being the nature of hybrids (you lose some effectiveness and gain more choice), and the second being that you lost the main reason to go hybrid in the first place - the choices that you gave up your effectiveness for are just as limited by your IRL lack of materials.
