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2 years ago ::
Aug 31, 2011 - 12:04PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2002
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The title says it all: Are monsters too weak? I know MM3 went a long way to buffing them up, but I wanted to discuss the generalities of monster design. I love the monster progression table, but I'm worried that with a group of heavy optimizers, you end up with monsters that are weak by comparison. Just look at AC first; a 1st level monster has a +6 bonus to hit AC. These are the ACs of the PHB1 classes (assuming an 18 primary stat and a 16 secondary stat):
Controllers
Wizard: 14
Companion: 14
Defenders
Fighter: 17/19
Paladin: 18/20
Companion: 18
Leaders
Cleric: 16
Warlord: 16/17
Companion: 16
Strikers
Ranger: 16 (str/wis)/17 (dex/wis)
Rogue: 16
Warlock: 16
Companion: 16
I tossed in the companion stats from the DMG2 to illustrate a point. Companion attack and defenses are typically 1 higher than monsters. This has made me question whether the game was designed to assume that players would have a slight edge over monsters to aid in multiple fights in a day?
Then my question ends up becoming is Defender AC too high, or is that typically countered by the defenders being the most likely to be flanked? Why do the PC defenders get so much more AC than the companions, when companions get the same ACs largely across the board?
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2 years ago ::
Aug 31, 2011 - 12:20PM
#2
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You are only doing AC how about comparing Fort, Ref, and Will?
| Prejudice and Discrimination Card | Utility 1 | | [Insert flavor text here ...] | @will  Psychic, Fire(Special) | | No Action - Forum | | Target:Trolls | | Effect: You summon every internet troll within 2 clicks. | | Size : Gigantic Immune Psychic (It doesn't care what you think) Immune Fire (Special): Flaming powers are what internet troll's feed on. Every flaming point regenerates them by the same amount. Special: If their target has a vulnerability their attacks inflict damage of that type. |
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2 years ago ::
Aug 31, 2011 - 12:21PM
#3
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As Monsters attack more than AC.
| Prejudice and Discrimination Card | Utility 1 | | [Insert flavor text here ...] | | @will Psychic, Fire(Special) | | No Action - Forum | | Target:Trolls | | Effect: You summon every internet troll within 2 clicks. | | Size : Gigantic Immune Psychic (It doesn't care what you think) Immune Fire (Special): Flaming powers are what internet troll's feed on. Every flaming point regenerates them by the same amount. Special: If their target has a vulnerability their attacks inflict damage of that type. |
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2 years ago ::
Aug 31, 2011 - 1:08PM
#4
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Defenders are designed with high base AC outputs in mind to help them do their job as being a shield for their allies. If they can't take the hit, they suffer for it. That being said, it's not a bad thing that their AC is so high, as many defenders are close range sort of folk. Use a monster to target their weak defense in a few encounters per session and you shouldn't have a problem putting a scare into them. Controllers work really well for this, especially if they dominate. Soldiers are accurate, and can mark in their own ways more often than not, so they too make good enemies to throw against a defender. Artillery too are fairly high in accuracy, and some can multi target to get over the mark penalty defenders inflict. Minions are expendable foes, and what they lack in accuracy, defense and power, they make up for with usability. Try having minions aid attack for another monster against the defender to beat his higher defenses out. Happy Gaming 
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2 years ago ::
Sep 01, 2011 - 5:08AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2002
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Qwerty, I've been playing 4E for years now, and I haven't noticed what you have; I feel that I've targetted AC far more than F/R/W. It may just be the types of monsters I like to use.
ToeSama
I'm aware of a defender's role. +2 AC over the others seems like it would have been enough. Heck, having 3 or 4 AC over the rest of the party may make their mark less of a discouragement to attack their friends, as a 16 AC rogue would still be easier to hit than a 20 AC paladin, even with -2 to hit.
Soldiers aren't any more accurate than the others now; Artillery are the only ones with an accuracy bonus.
I just find it odd how the companion defender has as much as 2 lower AC over the PC defenders. As I said, flanking could make up the difference, but a companion defender can be flanked too (as can other members of the party).
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2 years ago ::
Sep 01, 2011 - 5:15AM
#6
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Date Joined:
May 13, 2009
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This has made me question whether the game was designed to assume that players would have a slight edge over monsters to aid in multiple fights in a day?
The players have a huge whopping edge over the monsters for that exact purpose. They're supposed to do a lot of battles.
But in truth, whether or not monsters are strong or not depends on a lot of things, including synergy between enemies, DM tactics, player tactics and how optimised the players are. The monsters are designed for an average party, and if you find that this makes the battles too easy for your party you should probably just up the encounter level of every battle in the game by 1 (or even 2 if it's really insane)
With my group I find that they can deal with the monsters reasonably, but I certainly don't find them weak and I think the MM3 monsters could very well kill them. I'd rather have monsters that are slightly weak for optimised players then monsters that wipe out parties of inexperienced players, as it's easier for an experienced group to deviate from the guidelines then it is for a new one.
Epic Dungeon Master Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen! Your Kingdom awaits!Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 01, 2011 - 5:25AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2002
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I'd rather have monsters that are slightly weak for optimised players then monsters that wipe out parties of inexperienced players, as it's easier for an experienced group to deviate from the guidelines then it is for a new one.
Me too, in the end. I just haven't decided whether I want to give out an across the board +1 to attack and defense for my monsters (and my companions, since the party will typically have one in this campaign) or to just deal with it. I don't want to up EL as that raises HP and makes the fights drag on.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 01, 2011 - 6:10AM
#8
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Date Joined:
May 13, 2009
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Giving them +1 defenses also makes fights go longer. If you want to up the challenge but not the time the battle takes, you should just give them a bump to attack and damage.
Do you use the new MM3 and MV values or the old MM1/MM2 monsters? I think you use the new ones but if not that's an easy way to make battles quicker and deadlier.
Epic Dungeon Master Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen! Your Kingdom awaits!Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
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2 years ago ::
Sep 01, 2011 - 3:45PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2002
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I use the MM3/MV values. Upping defenses by +1 seems better than using ones of +1 level higher; then they don't get the hp bump (though the hp bump for one level is barely a single hit).
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2 years ago ::
Sep 04, 2011 - 8:21AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Apr 22, 2007
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Oh, you and your math. If they're too weak for your players, bump the numbers up a little.
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