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2 years ago ::
Aug 30, 2011 - 1:50PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Sep 30, 2010
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I do not get why everyone is getting up in arms about the feats, i find them all to be great, im ok with tax feats as long as i get something extra, my bladesinger i am making loves that War Wizard since all my spells are going for damage and not side effect spells, and my str templer is going to pick up Mighty Crusader.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 30, 2011 - 4:52PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Feb 25, 2009
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I was honestly hoping for something in this article that would be useful for characters who mix power sources, like a fighter|wizard or barbarian|sorcerer. Instead, everything has a very narrow focus, and even then manage to miss the mark more often than not... it's pretty disappointing.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 30, 2011 - 6:12PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2008
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I spent all day at work picturing gnome artificers accidently shooting their wands with their crossbows.
While it's a fun thought, the whole concept seems a clumsy fix.
I really think Crossbow implement is better for Artificers, but maybe expanded to have the expertise built into it.
Or "Artificer Expertise" +1/2/3 for simple weapons or rods staves and wands, can switch as a minor action. Gets across that artificer with the bandolier of wands and rods much better, even if they are still splitting magic item resources.
Or a superior Crossbow only open to Artificers that has a groove or hook that accomodates a wand or rod which allows the enhancement and expertise bonus to work with both implement and weapon powers. (And make it small for the sake of the Tinker Gnome archetype.)
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2 years ago ::
Aug 30, 2011 - 6:29PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2008
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Ultimately you know what I think the problem is here,
the expertise feats that came out were great in that they made individual weapons have properties that were not class dependent.
If you know how to use a longsword, you know how to parry attacks with it, if you know how to use a rapier you know how to strike at a weak point and cause more damage. Dosen't matter if you're a ranger, or a thief, a swordmage, or a battlemind.
However these feats are INTENSELY class tied. Several of the feats are clearly designed for particular builds of Paladins. Some of the feats can be used by different classes, but for the most part you look at each feat you know exactly what class and build it is designed for.
So stop pretending these are weapon and implement feats and just do it via class. It's a feat bonus to attack so it wouldn't stack with any other expertise feats. Then make the effects fit the class not the items, cause it's so awkward to do that.
Paladin Attack Expertise:
"You get a +1/2/3 feat bonus to attack with holy symbols and one weapon group you choose when you take this feat. In addition you gain a +1/2/3 bonus to damage when hitting creatures with the undead, elemental, or immortal origin using items that benefit from this feat."
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2 years ago ::
Aug 31, 2011 - 1:02AM
#25
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WotC, there was a problem that required a simple fix.
Adaptable Expertise
Benefit: You gain a +1 feat bonus to attack rolls. This bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and to +3 at 21st level.
In addition, when you are wielding both an implement and a weapon and are proficient with both, when you attack with the weapon, you can choose to use the magical properties of the implement instead of the weapon's, and if you attack with the implement, you can choose to use the magical properties of the weapon instead of the implement's
There was no need to write a separte feat for every build that minf want to wield a weapon and an implement, and clearly the attempt left you stretched for ideas.
WOTC, please steal this idea.
The fact that weapon/implement classes have to buy two magic items makes it enough of a handicap. Please stop handicapping them with a bad math fix (Versatile Expertise) and just release an updated math-fixed version of it.
The question would be how it interacts with classes that use the same item either as a weapon or implement depending on the power used. Or with classes that have a holy symbols and weapons since technically you do not wield holy symbols, you just need to carry one.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 31, 2011 - 3:02AM
#26
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2010
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You do wield holy symbols - you just wield them in a slot specific to them.
And yeah, Damon's feat isn't perfect - but it's a damn sight better than the offerings here.
I'm aware of the current philosophy - giving everything flavour and specificity - but this isn't an area, in my opinion, where that's beneficial. All it does is leave some people STILL out in the cold (totem users, pretty much anyone who uses a weapon AND an implement separately, pretty much anyone who uses a weapon AS an implement...) with older feats which provide later scaling and no additional bonuses.
What this issue needs isn't new bloat, it's errata. Changing Versatile Expertise to scale appropriately would be enough of a fix for most people. Then it's fine to go ahead and design all the wildly over-specialised build-specific fluffy bloat that the designers seem to want, because the baseline is there. But sorting out those millions and millions of combined wand/crossbow wielders whilst entire implement groups (tomes, totems) are ignored is... short-sighted, and deeply, deeply disappointing when it comes from one of the most anticipated articles for several months. The single most important thing that this article does is bring the Instrument implements in from the cold - giving them Expertise that they have never had at all is a nice touch.
Like so many things recently, this could have been so much better. I've said it before, I'll say it again - we have imaginations. We can provide our own flavour. What we are not is competent games designers, most of us, and many of us play in RAW campaigns anyway. So, flavour is fine, it can be inspiring - but make sure it's attached to sensible, functional mechanics. We can flavour things ourselves, we can't write the mechanics.
Sigh.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 31, 2011 - 11:05AM
#27
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- Stampeding Hybrid
- Dragon Slayer
Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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I do not get why everyone is getting up in arms about the feats, i find them all to be great, im ok with tax feats as long as i get something extra,
I was considering not touching on this, but I just can't let it be.
You seriously consider White Lotus Dueling Expertise to be a great feat? You consider hitting with an at-will for a benefit of +2 to Arcana and Dimplomacy to be part of a great feat? I'm playing an Arcana maxing Swordmage who is built with the intent of using almost exclusively at-will attacks at higher levels because of how I have buffed them up. That's about as close to the target character for that feat as you can get, and I am completely uninterested in that rider. It is crappy compared to what quality expertise feats do as their riders, and I fully intend to to keep Light Blade Expertise as that is extremely useful. Only good thing for WLDE is that it has the bare minimum expertise boosts.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 31, 2011 - 12:13PM
#28
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Date Joined:
Nov 15, 2004
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I think the way White Lotus Dueling Expertise is supposed to work is that while you're talking to someone and trying to befriend them or get them to trust you, you should attack them with an at-will attack, so that if you hit you'll have +2 to diplomacy and they'll like you more. It makes perfect sense to me.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 31, 2011 - 3:10PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Jun 20, 2009
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The question would be how it interacts with classes that use the same item either as a weapon or implement depending on the power used. Or with classes that have a holy symbols and weapons since technically you do not wield holy symbols, you just need to carry one.
For the first issue, it would fix the problem they have, and would give them +1/2/3 to attacks with their weapliment. They don;t have the problem of having to maintain both a property leveled implement and weapon (what the second part of the feat addresses) but it wouldn't effect them in any negative way.
And as was already said, holy symbols are wielded, just not in a hand.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 31, 2011 - 4:07PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Sep 30, 2010
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I do not get why everyone is getting up in arms about the feats, i find them all to be great, im ok with tax feats as long as i get something extra,
I was considering not touching on this, but I just can't let it be.
You seriously consider White Lotus Dueling Expertise to be a great feat? You consider hitting with an at-will for a benefit of +2 to Arcana and Dimplomacy to be part of a great feat? I'm playing an Arcana maxing Swordmage who is built with the intent of using almost exclusively at-will attacks at higher levels because of how I have buffed them up. That's about as close to the target character for that feat as you can get, and I am completely uninterested in that rider. It is crappy compared to what quality expertise feats do as their riders, and I fully intend to to keep Light Blade Expertise as that is extremely useful. Only good thing for WLDE is that it has the bare minimum expertise boosts.
i had a fight in my group where they had a skill challenge and try talk the guy from sending more people as they battle some of the henchmen (the leader was out of reach and when they killed the ones they that was there, more showed up) and Arcana and Dimplomacy was part of the challenge (arcana to get on the magic part of the leader, and well dimplomacy is well normal)....i had it where they got to the fight the out of their level guy if they failed and they failed and "died" but i think if they had that, it would had changed what happen during that fight since most of the time when they rolled for arcana and dimplomacy they missed it by one or two, it was sad and funny.
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