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2 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2011 - 12:48AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2008
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In our games, we mostly use potions as a backup for really bad situations. For instance if someone goes down and there are no heals, and second wind, then we dig out a potion and use it.
We also enforce the rules that you have to take the potion from your belt/backpack as a minor action, and then use another minor to drink it (or standard to use it on an ally).
We still manage fine, and have 3-5 encounters per day without major problems.
I think that healing surges are greatly devalued as a character resource if you can just buy hp with gold. Defender classes have lots of surges for a reason. The durable feat is also in the book for a good reason and constituion as an ability score is pretty good too.
Now, if at lvl 5+ we could just buy 10 hp with 50gp it would be just odd.
As a story element, I have given a few rare potions sometimes that don't consume a surge, but those are rewards that can't be bought/crafted, to make them feel more special.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2011 - 5:48AM
#22
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Check out Potion of Vigour from Adventurer's Vault, which grants 15 (I think) temporary hit points and is about level 9 item.
There are three in adventurers vault - levels 9, 19 and 29 which give temporary points in the order of 15, 25 and 35 respectively. They still use up a healing surge.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2011 - 6:06AM
#23
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2011
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Check out Potion of Vigour from Adventurer's Vault, which grants 15 (I think) temporary hit points and is about level 9 item.
There are three in adventurers vault - levels 9, 19 and 29 which give temporary points in the order of 15, 25 and 35 respectively. They still use up a healing surge.
In mid to late tier these are more attractive than the regular healing pots though.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2011 - 6:07AM
#24
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Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2008
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As far as I can remember, there is also a potion of regeneration that uses a surge, but gives regen 5 while bloodied. That one can save some surges in difficult fights if you drink it at the right moment.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2011 - 6:39AM
#25
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How about a potion that costs some other resource instead of a healing surge, such as an action point? Or one that imposes some drawback in return for surgeless healing, such as a penalty to saving throws for the rest of the encounter?
It would defeat the pupose of the potions since
1) One would only be able to use a healing potion every other encounter.
2) Depending on the combat the loss of saving throws would either be a horrible penalty or pointless. Especially if the penalties stacked/didn't stack.
A way to get around the need for healing is that literally everyone multi-classes into a leader role to pick up a heal. Its been a long time but I think in a group I played in the dm altered the heal skill and second wind so that Second Wind functioned as a leader heal with the previous benefits and that heal checks to spend your second wind were instead to simply spend a surge.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2011 - 6:44AM
#26
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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One issue I have with the healing pots in general is that most of the time they are too dangerous to use in combat, surgeless or otherwise. Case in point: ally was dying, used a pot to bring them back to 10 HPs. Monster X continues to bash on newly restored character (the character was still the closest, and the enemy wasn't exactly bright), sending them back to dying land. They just don't do enough to warrent a surge cost IMO. A simple mechanical way to limit surgeless abuse it to limit the frequency of use. Make it usable once per day, or even once per encounter, and now even having an unlimited supply means very little.
In one home adventure, the DM included a special fountain that we could drink from and "all" it did was restore a healing surge. He allowed us to fill up a waterskin, so we had one more dose available, but it was only usable once per day (extended rest). If I could get a cask of that, I'd be happy, but we aren't merchants, we are adventurers. We thanked the gods, and proceeded to finish the adventure, not looking back. Had we even tried to abuse it, chances are the DM would simply have the fountain stop working at some point, etc. Player abuse is easily controllable by the DM, as it should be.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2011 - 8:45AM
#27
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1) One would only be able to use a healing potion every other encounter.
This would be for more powerful healing potions, obviously. I didn't mean to imply this hypothetical "spend an AP to get some surgeless healing" potion would replace the existing "spend a surge to get 10hp" ones.
2) Depending on the combat the loss of saving throws would either be a horrible penalty or pointless. Especially if the penalties stacked/didn't stack.
And yet, there are already powers that give you benefits (including healing) for the cost of a temporary saving throw penalty, so the game's actual designers seem to think it's an appropriate cost.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2011 - 8:53AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Jan 27, 2010
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In 2e you couldn't buy potions off the shelf in vast quantities... and so potions actually meant something. I think putting up prices and creating unlimited magic shops in 4e was a dubious decision.
Hmm I found 625,000 on a dragon, one sec as I run over to the village a pick up a +5 holy avenger :-)
I couldn't agree more. Of course you don't have to play that way.
Healing potions in 4e don't really work as a last resort because by the time you need them you're out of healing surges anyway.
I just make them work as a cure light wounds spell.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2011 - 9:49AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Jan 30, 2007
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In 2e you couldn't buy potions off the shelf in vast quantities... and so potions actually meant something. I think putting up prices and creating unlimited magic shops in 4e was a dubious decision.
Hmm I found 625,000 on a dragon, one sec as I run over to the village a pick up a +5 holy avenger :-)
If that was a "4e decision" I'd be with you. But you could buy practically unlimited items in 3e (looking at a FR book that tells me that in Neverwinter I could buy 2,000 gold worth of healing potions off of a cleric per week). While the default setting of 4e states that PCs can typically find people selling magical items in larger towns, it is by no means "unlimited." We just don't have charts telling us how much a merchant has anymore, unlike the 3.5 mentality of "spell everything out so the players can rules-lawyer the DM about th setting." The 4e DMGs allows for restricting magical items present in a shop, or even a lack of shops outright.
And, on top of that, for those people who completely adhere to the rulebook and can't use any type of mental process to justify it otherwise, they've even created rules allowing for the DM to say "look, you can't just buy that item" or "that item can't even be made."
Yes, if your DM is lazy and/or has a complete lack of imagination regarding the issue, you can buy unlimited items in town. But I do think that the design decision made re: 4e was to get rid of playing Accountants and Audits.
Salla, on minions: I typically use them as encounter filler. 'I didn't quite fill out the XP budget, not enough room left for a decent near-level monster ... sprinkle in a few minions'. Kind of like monster styrofoam packing peanuts.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 29, 2011 - 12:33PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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But I do think that the design decision made re: 4e was to get rid of playing Accountants and Audits.
But I thought everyone liked to keep track of rations, torches, and when they last relieved themselves...it's the cornerstone of a well-designed RPG...right?
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