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2 years ago ::
Aug 22, 2011 - 11:58AM
#21
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The original (AD&D) idea behind Psionics was that its usage could not be detected by a non-psionic.
I agree with ecla. I never thought 1e psionics were undetectable or unaffected by things like dispel magic.
Psionic Invisibility was the major problem that I remember - it explicitly wasn't penetrable by any magical means, and didn't operate by any of the normal Invisibility rules.
This *was* a potentially game-breaking problem in at least one edition. I just don't remember if it was 1E or 2E "Complete Psionic Handbook"
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2 years ago ::
Aug 22, 2011 - 12:02PM
#22
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Date Joined:
May 13, 2009
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I didn't view his thread as 'trying to not play by the same rules' but as he would like to see Psionics function like it did in the older editions. It was a refreshing question that made me think of my early D&D days. Good question.
I'm pretty sure that by "having it work like it did in the old days", he was asking for it "not to play by the rules", since in the old days it didn't work by the same rules.
Epic Dungeon Master Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen! Your Kingdom awaits!Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 22, 2011 - 12:55PM
#23
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"The original (AD&D) idea behind Psionics was that its usage could not be detected by a non-psionic."
Heh, it's funny how this idea behind psionics has always been maintained by some people.
There's nothing in the 1E PHB Appendix 1 that instructs the DM or the player to regard psionic disciplines or attack or defense modes as undetectable.
Major and minor disciplines are written up in the same format as spells are, and a lot of them are described to be similar to magic-user spells of the same name (just lacking components, ...).
My 2E library is lacking so I'm not sure if the Complete Psionics Handbook (PHBR5) or similar book or Dragon article or whatever made this 'undetectable' claim an actual rule, but if so, it's the only edition to have 'undetectable' psionics.
It has been many years (I played AD&D in the early 80's), so I am speculating about why we had that impression at the time. Of course, I cannot remember any specific rule that said that psionic usage was largely undetectable by creatures without psionic powers.
But, a number of reasons why we may have thought this have already been mentioned in this thread:
* No components were required.
* No gestures and no implements were required for "casting"
* No words or incantations
* No outwardly visible manifestations of the "spell" (like a fireballs, lightning, magic missile, etc).
* Combat occurred 10 times faster than normal
Maybe this is the problem: at the time, we never questioned the fact. For us it was too obviously undetectable.
Consider the following scenario:
4 adventures are playing cards at a table. The hands of all participants can be seen. Suddenly a mug of ale rises from the table and empties its contents on one of the player's head. If it was a wizard, you would have seen a gesture so someone is used psionics. But who was it?
Aside Question: Since they were very rare (go ahead, try to roll up a 1E psionic character without fudging the dice  and strictly only humans could be psionic ('and possibly dwarves or halflings', a sentence that really sums up how 'tight' rules language was back in the day , my question to the forum: did anyone ever play a 1E psionic character from 1st level, rolled up fair and square?
All I can remember is that psionics was an additional option that you could roll for. If you were among the small percentage that had psionic power, then you determined your power level and additional powers with further roles.
However, it was risky to roll because if you had psionic powers, but they were weak, then they were more of a liability then an asset.
On the other hand, if you had them then usually no-one else in the party knew, so you could have a lot of fun (see scenario above)! 
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2 years ago ::
Aug 22, 2011 - 1:23PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Nov 27, 2005
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No, you don't get an unfair advantage anymore. You have to play by the same rules as everybody else.
Well, besides getting to spam encounter powers :33.
Also
Are people implying that halos aren't bad ass?
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Zammm = Batman. Bronies unite."I'd call you a genius, but I'm in the room." It's my sig in a box
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Everything is better when you read it in Bane's voice.
Your human antics and desire to continue living have moved me. Just kidding. You cannot move me physically or emotionally. Wall humor.
Copy effects work like a photocopy machine: you get a copy of the 'naked' card, NOT of what's on it.
Funny story:
InQuest Magazine (I think it was InQuest) had an oversized Chaos Orb which I totally rooked someone into allowing into a (non-sanctioned) game.
I had a proxy card that was a Mountain with "Chaos Orb" written on it. When I played it, my opponent cried foul:
Him: "WTF? a Proxy? no-one said anything about Proxies. Do you even own an actual Chaos Orb?"
Me: "Yes, but I thought it would be better to use a Proxy."
Him: "No way. If you're going to put a Chaos Orb in your deck you have to use your actual Chaos Orb."
Me: "*Sigh*. Okay."
I pulled out this huge Chaos Orb and placed it on the table. He tried to cry foul again but everyone else said he insisted I use my actual Chaos Orb and that was my actual Chaos Orb. I used it, flipped it and wiped most of his board.
Unsurprisingly, that only worked once and only because everyone present thought it was hilarious. 
My DM on Battleminds:
no, see i can kill defenders, but 8 consecutive crits on a battlemind, eh walk it off.
Hi guys! So, I'm a sort of returning player to Magic. I say sort of because as a child I had two main TCG's I liked. Yu-Gi-Oh, and Pokemon. Some of my friends branched off in to Magic, and I bought two pre-made decks just to kind of fit in. Like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon were what I really knew how to play. I have a extensive knowledge of deck building in those two TCG's. However, as far as Magic is concerned, I only ever used those two pre made decks. I know how the game is played, and I know general things, but now I want to get in the game for real. I want to begin playing it as a regular. My question is, are all cards ever released from the time of the inception of this game until present day fair game in a deck? Or are there special rules? Are some cards forbidden or restricted? Thanks guys, and I will gladly accept ANY help lol.
I have the same problem with women.
Is this my new ego sig? Yes it is, other Barry
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And that's why you should never, ever call RP Jesus on being a troll, because then everyone else playing along gets outed, too, and the thread goes back to being boring.
See, this is why RPJesus should be in charge of the storyline. The novel line would never have been cancelled if he had been running the show. Specifically the Slobad and Geth's Head talkshow he just described.
Not only was that an obligatory joke, it was an on-topic post that still managed to be off-topic due to thread derailment. RP Jesus does it again folks.
I think I'm gonna' start praying to Jesus... That's right, RPJesus, I'm gonna' be praying to you, right now.
O' Jesus
Please continue to make my time here on the forums fun and cause me to chuckle.
Amen.
It was wonderful. Us Johnnies had a field day. That Timmy with the Grizzly bears  would actually have to think about swinging into your Mogg Fanatic  , giving you time to set up your silly  combo  . Nowadays it's all DERPSWING! with thier blue jeans and their MP3 players and their EM EM OH AR PEE JEES and their "Dewmocracy" and their children's card games and their Jersey Shores and their Tattooed Tenaged Vampire Hunters from Beverly Hills 
Seriously, that was amazing. I laughed my *ss off. Made my day, and I just woke up.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 22, 2011 - 2:02PM
#25
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Yeah, Psionic Powers are still Powers, and all powers are subject to the "you are aware that you are being affected by a power, who's doing it, and what it's doing" unless the power specifically says otherwise.
This is not true in general. Have you ever been hit by an arrow coming out of pitch darkness? You may know you are being affected by a power, and what it is doing, but you don't know who did it.
Heck, to go back to AD&D: we were once hit by a delayed fireball laid by an invisible wight. We were as clueless as anyone hit by a psionic attack.
For me the the rules have never had to state explicity that you cannot detect where an attack is coming from if there is no outward manifestation, that's obvious.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 22, 2011 - 2:05PM
#26
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Date Joined:
May 13, 2009
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This is not true in general. Have you ever been hit by an arrow coming out of pitch darkness? You may know you are being affected by a power, and what it is doing, but you don't know who did it.
Unless the creature in question is hidden (which is unlikely after an attack) you know exactly from which square it originated, even in pitch darkness. You might not be able to attach a face to the attacker, but you still know where he is.
Heck, to go back to AD&D: we were once hit by a delayed fireball laid by an invisible wight. We were as clueless as anyone hit by a psionic attack.
Irrelevant to the discussion as it's a different game.
For me the the rules have never had to state explicity that you cannot detect where an attack is coming from if there is no outward manifestation, that's obvious.
They explicatly state that you do know where it's coming from, even when there is no outward manifestation (unless the target is hidden (game wise, not flavorwise), which is also mentioned explicitly) , because that's what makes the game work better mechanically.
Epic Dungeon Master Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen! Your Kingdom awaits!Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 22, 2011 - 2:22PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Mar 17, 2010
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This is not true in general. Have you ever been hit by an arrow coming out of pitch darkness? You may know you are being affected by a power, and what it is doing, but you don't know who did it.
Unless the creature in question is hidden (which is unlikely after an attack) you know exactly from which square it originated, even in pitch darkness. You might not be able to attach a face to the attacker, but you still know where he is.
For me the the rules have never had to state explicity that you cannot detect where an attack is coming from if there is no outward manifestation, that's obvious.
They explicatly state that you do know where it's coming from, even when there is no outward manifestation (unless the target is hidden (game wise, not flavorwise), which is also mentioned explicitly) , because that's what makes the game work better mechanically.
This is new to me. I have never read a rule which said I automatically know the origin square of an attack.
Do you have a rule book quote on this?
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2 years ago ::
Aug 22, 2011 - 2:26PM
#28
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2005
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I was responding to the people who thought I was joking.
Not "joking", exactly - just "has seen the art"
Seriously, take a look through PH3 and Psionic Power. Find me a picture of any Psionic using a power without having the halo.
I think we're just misunderstanding each other. I know that that's how they're presented in most if not all artwork in 4E. What I interpreted as a joke was that I thought that thespaceinvader was jokingly suggesting that Psionic characters must have these things just because they're part of the official art. My mistake. Either way, psionic halos are still a joke to me, and they don't have to be included in your games or for your characters if you don't want them to be.
Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TMSpeaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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2 years ago ::
Aug 22, 2011 - 2:40PM
#29
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This is new to me. I have never read a rule which said I automatically know the origin square of an attack.
Do you have a rule book quote on this?
The rule is actually that you always know what square all non-Hidden creatures are in, and that an attack breaks Hidden and reveals your location.
There are a VERY few ways to remain Hidden while attacking, and most of them are of the sort "if you miss while Hidden, your location is not revealed".
In general, though, the fact of the attack reveals the location of the attacker. And being affected by a power reveals all the details of the power.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 22, 2011 - 2:41PM
#30
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Date Joined:
May 13, 2009
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This is new to me. I have never read a rule which said I automatically know the origin square of an attack.
Do you have a rule book quote on this?
Hm, in my PHB on page 57 it says "Whenever you affect a creature with a power, that creature knows exactly what you've done to it and what conditions you've imposed".
But that's not super conclusive about also knowing you did it (though you can probably argue it) I remember reading it more clearly somewhere though. Maybe it's clearer in the RC? Or someone else has a clearer quote about it?
(Or can point out that I'm wrong )
Epic Dungeon Master Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen! Your Kingdom awaits!Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
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you loads
